Lam Rim texts

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Lam Rim texts

Postby BFS » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:25 pm

Jewel Ornament of Liberation
The Wish-Fulfilling Gem of the Noble Teachings - Gampopa and Khenpo Konchog Gyeltsen Rinpoche
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"For more than eight centuries, this text has provided the backbone of study particularly in the Kagyu tradition - covering the initial entry into the path and continuing through finding a spiritual master, teachings on impermanance, karma, bodhicitta, Buddha nature, six perfections, ten bodhisattva bhumis, Buddhahood and the activities of a Buddha."

"Anyone who knows the Jewel Ornament well can say that they really understand Buddhism."Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen.

"This text is an excellent work that reflects the blending of two systems of teaching - the Kadampa tradition and the mahamudra tradition. Gampopa received complete transmissions of Atisha's Lam Rim tradition and Naropa's mahamudra tradition. This text is therefore a Lam Rim text and reflects the Madhyamika philosophical view, but it also implicitly reflects the teachings of highest yoga tantra and mahamudra."The Dalai Lama.
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:49 pm

Greetings,

Does Lam Rim replace or complement the Noble Eightfold Path of the suttas?

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby malalu » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:49 am

Hello Retro.

I think that the various Lam Rim's can (and do) complement the Noble Eightfold path. Some have said it is like looking from another perspective.
I have not studied "Jewel Heart of Liberation" so I cannot speak to that, but in Tsongkhapa' s Lam Rim Chen Mo, many if not most of the aspects are covered.
Just one of the many forms of teachings to meet the many different conditions of the many different practitioners, I think.

Malalu
The past is but a present memory or condition, the future but a present projection, and the present itself vanishes before it can be grasped.- Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby BFS » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:09 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Does Lam Rim replace or complement the Noble Eightfold Path of the suttas?

Metta,
Retro. :)


Greetings,

They are compatible, looking at the same thing from different perspectives.


"Prayer and aspiration are not enough for deep transformation; reasoning is necessary. Transformation comes from studying the lamrim, thinking about the topics, and doing analytical meditation on them. With a firm grounding in lamrim, we'll be able to work with our mind no matter what is going on in it or around us."
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:46 am

Greetings,

Thank you for the answers.

:namaste:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Live in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes

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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby ground » Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:59 am

Dear friends

I never have studied Gampopas Lamrim but I have been and still are studying Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chenmo which I consider the basis of all. However I appreciate also the teachings of other tibetan schools and all buddhist schools beyond that.

To give an overview I have listed some of the the headings of the outline to give those who are interested an idea about the vast scope of Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chenmo.


Outline (extract)

Unfortunately the indention that elucidates the structure optically becomes visible only when in edit mode, e.g. after clicking the quote button above this posting

Showing the greatness of the teaching's author in order to establish that it is of noble origin
Showing the greatness of the teaching in order to engender respect for the instructions
How to listen to and explain the teachings
How to lead students with the actual instructions
How to rely on the teacher, the root of the path
The stages of how the students train their minds after they have relied on the teacher
A somewhat elaborate explanation for developing certain knowledge
A brief indication of how to sustain the meditation
The stages of how the students train their minds after they have relied on the teacher
An exhortation to take full advantage of a life of leisure and opportunitiy
How to take full advantage of a life of leisure and opportunity
How to develop a certain knowledge of a general presentation of the path
The actual way to take full advantage of a life of leisuree and opportunity
Training the mind in the stages of the path shared with persons of small capacity
The actual training of thought for a person of small capacity
Developing a state of mind that strives diligently for the sake of future lifes
Mindfulness of death, the contemplation that you will not remain long in this world
Contemplating what will occur in your future life: the happiness or suffering of the two types of
beings
Relying on the means for achieving happiness in the next life
Training in going to refuge, the excellent door for entering the teaching
Developing the faith of conviction that is the root of all temporary happiness and certain goodness
Reflecting on karma and its effects in general
Reflecting on karma and its effects in detail
The measure of the attitude of a person of small capacity
Clearing up misconceptions concerning the attitude of a person of small capacity
Training the mind in the stages of the path shared with persons of medium capacity
The mental training
Identifying the mind intent on liberation
The method for developing the mind intent on liberation
Reflection on suffering and its origin
Reflection on the truth of suffering - the faults of cyclic existence
Showing the significance of the Buddha's asserting the truth of suffering as the first of the
four truths
The actual meditation on suffering
Reflection on the universal suffering of cyclic existence
Reflection on the eight types of suffering
Reflection on the six types of suffering
Meditation on the three types of suffering
Reflection on specific suffering
The suffering of human beings
The suffering of the demigods
Reflection on the suffering of the deities
Reflection on the process of cyclic existence in terms of its origins
How the afflictions arise
How you thereby accumulate karma
Reflection from the viewpoint of the twelve dependent-arisings
The division into twelve factors
Abbreviated classification of the factors
The number of lifetimes required to complete all twelve factors
How their significance is summarized
The measure of the determination to be free
Dispelling misconceptions
Training the mind in the stages of the path for persons of great capacity
Showing that developing the spirit of enlightenment is the only entrance to the Mahayana
How to develop the spirit of enlightenment
How the spirit of entlightenment depends on certain causes to arise
The stages of training in the spirit of enlightenment
The measure of producing the spirit of enlightenment
How to adopt the spirit of enlightenment through its ritual
How to learn the bodhisattva deeds after developing the spirit of enlightenment
The reason why you must learn the trainings after developing the spirit of entlightenment
Demonstrating that you will not become a buddha by learning either method or wisdom separately
Explanation of the process of learning the precepts
How to train in the Mahayana in general
Establishing the desire to learn the precepts of the spirit of enlightenment
Taking the vows of the conquerors' children after establishing the desire to learn the precepts
How to train after taking the vows
What the precepts are based upon
How all the precepts are included in the six perfections
The process of learning the perfections
How to train in the bodhisattva deeds in general
Training the perfections that mature the qualities you will have when you become a buddha
How to train the perfection of generosity
What generosity is
How to begin the development of generosity
The divisions of generosity
How to train the perfection of ethical discipline
How to train the perfection of patience
How to train the perfection of joyous perseverence
How to train the perfection of meditative stabilization
How to train the perfection of wisdom
Training in the four ways to gather disciples that help others to mature



Kind regards
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby Luke » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:28 pm

TMingyur wrote:To give an overview I have listed some of the the headings of the outline to give those who are interested an idea about the vast scope of Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chenmo.

Yes, I have about how long and wonderfully detailed the Lam Rim Chenmo is. I bought the volume about karma from the Lam Rim Chenmo, which I plan to read soon.

At the other end of the spectrum, is the Drikung Kagyu's "Gongchig" which was written by Jigten Sumgon. This text is like a much shorter, more concise summary of Gampopa's Jewel Ornament of Liberation. An English translation of the Gonchig was recently published.

http://shop.vajrapub.org/product.sc?productId=103
http://www.drikung.org/index.php?option ... Itemid=363

I have read most of the Jewel Ornament of Liberation and I find it to be a beautifully clear summary of Buddhism. In areas of study in which there are vast amounts of information available, sometimes the greatest act of kindness is the writing of an excellent summary. The JOL summarizes the information from many ancient sutras, and Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen's introduction and summary of this text is also excellent.

In many ways, the Jewel Ornament of Liberation is the way I had always wished the Pali Canon would be: it's clearly organized without antiquated, repetitive language and without too many tedious, ancient parables. Every part of the JOL is layed out in a logical and precise way, yet the language is never too obscure or technical: it's like the schematic outline of how to attain enlightenment.
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby ground » Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:07 pm

Luke wrote:
TMingyur wrote:To give an overview I have listed some of the the headings of the outline to give those who are interested an idea about the vast scope of Tsongkhapa's Lam Rim Chenmo.

Yes, I have about how long and wonderfully detailed the Lam Rim Chenmo is. I bought the volume about karma from the Lam Rim Chenmo, which I plan to read soon.

Yes the Chenmo (3 english volumes), written 1402, is the most elaborate one, but there are also more concise versions of Lam rim from Tsongkhapa:
1. Abreviated stages of the path
2. A summary presentation of the stages of the path
3. Condensed/Medium-length exposition of the stages of the path to enlightenment (1415) (1 volume)
4. The shortest of all: The three principal aspects of the path (1-2 pages).

see also here: Bibliographic guide Tsongkhapa

Luke wrote:In many ways, the Jewel Ornament of Liberation is the way I had always wished the Pali Canon would be: it's clearly organized without antiquated, repetitive language and without too many tedious, ancient parables. Every part of the JOL is layed out in a logical and precise way, yet the language is never too obscure or technical: it's like the schematic outline of how to attain enlightenment.

I completely agree that the Lamrim would be an ideal template for the Pali Canon ;)


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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby Luke » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:22 am

TMingyur wrote:Yes the Chenmo (3 english volumes), written 1402, is the most elaborate one, but there are also more concise versions of Lam rim from Tsongkhapa:
1. Abreviated stages of the path
2. A summary presentation of the stages of the path
3. Condensed/Medium-length exposition of the stages of the path to enlightenment (1415) (1 volume)
4. The shortest of all: The three principal aspects of the path (1-2 pages).


That's cool that the Lamrim Chenmo exists in so many versions. It's sort of like the Prajnaparamita Sutras in that respect. The ancient masters certainly understood the value of an excellent summary!

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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby malalu » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:43 pm

Yes you're correct, TMingyur. There are other and shorter Lam Rim's than just the Lam Rim Chen Mo. I have also found Pabonka Rinpoche's concise teaching of Lam Rim found in the book "Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand" a great study guide as well. He also uses some of the more condensed Lam Rim's such as the "Swift Path" Lam Rim for example, which were written later than some of Tsongkhapa's great works. I enjoy the aspect of the book as well, that in each of the various headings, he gives great examples and does a good job of hammering home the importance of each section as it relates to each of the three scopes and to the overall path.

As for "The Three Principal Aspects", commentaries on this very short text are in my opinion invaluable. These three aspects really describe the whole essence of the Mahayana. It is good to understand the many different facets described in the Lam Rim's, but they all seem to come back to these three "Principal Aspects" of renunciation, bodhicitta, and correct view.
The past is but a present memory or condition, the future but a present projection, and the present itself vanishes before it can be grasped.- Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby mudra » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:13 am

Ironically this thread on Lam Rim started with the posting on Jewel Ornament of Liberation which though it is partly rooted in the Lam Rim is not really considered part of the Lam Rim tradition in the Gelug which lists about 9 Lam Rims in the Gelug tradition (including Pabongka Rinpoche and Gomchen Rinpoche's).

There are approximate equivalents in the other 3 Buddhist traditions of Tibet (Lam Dre in Sakya, Jewel Ornament of Liberation in Kagyu, Resting the Mind in it's Natural State in Nyingma) in that they teach some form of graded, sequential approach but there are telling differences too.

The Gelug Lam Rim tradition takes us through phases of renunciation, generating conventional bodhicitta, and finally superior wisdom - the latter being pretty much the Madhyamaka Prasangika pov.

In Jewel Ornament for example, the very first chapter discusses Buddha Nature - something not discussed to any extent in Gelug in general. (see discussion over at Dhamma Wheel) http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3878
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby mudra » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:15 am

Luke wrote:
TMingyur wrote:Yes the Chenmo (3 english volumes), written 1402, is the most elaborate one, but there are also more concise versions of Lam rim from Tsongkhapa:
1. Abreviated stages of the path
2. A summary presentation of the stages of the path
3. Condensed/Medium-length exposition of the stages of the path to enlightenment (1415) (1 volume)
4. The shortest of all: The three principal aspects of the path (1-2 pages).


That's cool that the Lamrim Chenmo exists in so many versions. It's sort of like the Prajnaparamita Sutras in that respect. The ancient masters certainly understood the value of an excellent summary!

OM AH HUNG


Um, there is only one Lam Rim Chen Mo. There are several Lam Rims. Chen Mo means "great exposition" if you like, it is the most extensive of the all the Lam Rims in the Gelug tradition.
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby Huifeng » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:40 am

mudra wrote:Ironically this thread on Lam Rim started with the posting on Jewel Ornament of Liberation which though it is partly rooted in the Lam Rim is not really considered part of the Lam Rim tradition in the Gelug which lists about 9 Lam Rims in the Gelug tradition (including Pabongka Rinpoche and Gomchen Rinpoche's).

...


But didn't the Gelugpas get it from the Kagyupas and other Kadampa based traditions anyway? Or am I mistaken on this?
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby Astus » Sat Apr 03, 2010 10:54 am

I'd like to make a note that none of the Lam Rim texts could qualify as a "summary of the Pali Canon". For concise presentation of the Theravada (and not all Hinayana) path of similar quality one should look for Abhidhamma summaries like the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. Lam Rim texts are very distant relatives of such Theravada summaries.
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This face, the face at birth."

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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby Huifeng » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:17 am

TMingyur wrote:
Luke wrote:In many ways, the Jewel Ornament of Liberation is the way I had always wished the Pali Canon would be: it's clearly organized without antiquated, repetitive language and without too many tedious, ancient parables. Every part of the JOL is layed out in a logical and precise way, yet the language is never too obscure or technical: it's like the schematic outline of how to attain enlightenment.


I completely agree that the Lamrim would be an ideal template for the Pali Canon ;)


Not even close, really. Not even close. Let's not get all Procrustean here, everyone.

Astus wrote:I'd like to make a note that none of the Lam Rim texts could qualify as a "summary of the Pali Canon". For concise presentation of the Theravada (and not all Hinayana) path of similar quality one should look for Abhidhamma summaries like the Abhidhammattha Sangaha. Lam Rim texts are very distant relatives of such Theravada summaries.


First, try the Visuddhimagga, then the much later Abhidhammattha-sangaha.
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby mudra » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:52 am

Huifeng wrote:
mudra wrote:Ironically this thread on Lam Rim started with the posting on Jewel Ornament of Liberation which though it is partly rooted in the Lam Rim is not really considered part of the Lam Rim tradition in the Gelug which lists about 9 Lam Rims in the Gelug tradition (including Pabongka Rinpoche and Gomchen Rinpoche's).

...


But didn't the Gelugpas get it from the Kagyupas and other Kadampa based traditions anyway? Or am I mistaken on this?


Ven, nice to be back in communication!

The Lam Rim tradition as found in today's Gelug really is a development that goes back to Jowo Atisha, whose principal disciple was Dromtonpa, founder of the Kadam movement. Jowo Atisha's "Light on the Path" (Bodhipathapradipam) was the in fact the first "graded stages" type of structuring of the path, though in this text the first two levels are covered in a very succinct manner (3 out of more than 60 verses) and the rest of the text is devoted to the Bodhisattva (and its subsidiary Tantric) path. It's explained that: a. apparently people in those days had more familiarity w the beginning and intermediate stages of the path and b. after all he was invited to Tibet precisely to clarify the bodhisattva path!

This was the during the advent of all the new sarma traditions of translations from India - the seeds of the Kadam/Gelug, Sakya, and Kagyu. Marpa was a contemporary of Atisha's, they even shared some teachers in common.

Gampopa, a brilliant physician from the Dagpo area, first entered into the Kadam tradition. He was a crossover in that he received these teachings from the Kadam lineage then combined it with Mahamudra teachings he later received from Milarepa and it passed down into the Kagyu tradition that was seeded by Marpa and Milarepa. So in that sense it is a little bit outside the Gelug tradition. It is Gampopa who brought this into the Kagyu tradition.

Soon after Dromtonpa, the Lam Rim tradition split into three lineages (this was more in terms of methodology of teaching) then was recombined by Je Tsongkhapa into one, forming what was then called the "New Kadampa" lineage (nothing to do with the current movement of the same name) or Gelug. Je Tsongkhapa reformulated this graded stages approach his various Lam Rims, and after je Tsongkhapa there were a couple of Gelug masters who also wrote their Lam Rims, pretty much based on Je Tsongkhapa's but with slightly different emphasis.

:anjali:

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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby sukhamanveti » Sat May 22, 2010 7:03 pm

Can anyone comment on the relative merits of these commentaries on the Lam Rim Chen Mo? Has anyone read any of them?

1. Steps on the Path to Enlightenment vols. 1-3 Geshe Lhundub Sopa

2. Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand by Pabongka Rinpoche

3. Liberation in Our Hands (the older translation) by Pabongka Rinpoche

4. Practicing the Path: A Commentary on the Lamrim Chenmo by Yangsi Rinpoche

5. Introduction to Emptiness: As Taught in Tsong-kha-pa’s Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path, Revised Edition, by Guy Newland

Thank you.
namo bhagavate śākyamunaye tathāgatāyārhate samyaksaṁbuddhāya | namaḥ sarvabuddhabodhisattvebhyaḥ ||

"Bodhisattva-mahāsattvas love all beings in the world equally, as if each were their only child..." Buddhāvataṃsakamahāvaipulya Sūtra
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby Will » Sat May 22, 2010 7:50 pm

sukhamanveti wrote:Can anyone comment on the relative merits of these commentaries on the Lam Rim Chen Mo? Has anyone read any of them?

1. Steps on the Path to Enlightenment vols. 1-3 Geshe Lhundub Sopa

2. Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand by Pabongka Rinpoche

3. Liberation in Our Hands (the older translation) by Pabongka Rinpoche

4. Practicing the Path: A Commentary on the Lamrim Chenmo by Yangsi Rinpoche

5. Introduction to Emptiness: As Taught in Tsong-kha-pa’s Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path, Revised Edition, by Guy Newland

Thank you.


I have read them all, save #5, and it will just focus on the last part of the LRCM.

Having a preference for original sources, I would suggest The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment which is the full 3 volume translation (Snow Lion pub.) of Je Tsongkhapa's LRCM. Geshe Sopa's commentary is great and covers (or will when finished) all the major subjects, but does not give the root text of Je Rinpoche. Considering the size of the root text that is understandable. But I would still expose myself to the English language source of Je Tsongkhapa first.
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby Will » Sat May 22, 2010 8:01 pm

Here is Jowo Atisha's text that inspired Je Gampopa, Je Tsongkhapa & others:

http://community.palouse.net/lotus/atisa.htm

The stages of the path approach goes back to Buddha, but his stages differ from the Indo-Tibetan items.
One should refrain from biased judgments and doubting in fathoming the Buddha and the Dharma of the Buddhas. Even though a dharma may be extremely difficult to believe, one should nonetheless maintain faith in it. Nagarjuna
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Re: Lam Rim texts

Postby sukhamanveti » Sun May 23, 2010 5:47 am

Will wrote:I have read them all,save #5, and it will just focus on the last part of the LRCM.

Having a preference for original sources sources I would suggest The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment which is the full 3 volume translation (Snow Lion pub.) of Je Tsongkhapa's LRCM. Geshe Sopa's commentary is great and covers (or will when finished) all the major subjects, but does not give the root text of Je Rinpoche. Considering the size of the root text that is understandable. But I would still expose myself to the English language source of Je Tsongkhapa first.


Hi, Will! Thank you for your reply.

I have the good fortune to own the first two volumes of The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment. I really should buy the third some time this year. I once owned Liberation in Our Hands. The only thing I remember is that it had a depiction of the figures in the visualization of the field of merit, whereas the newer translation, Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, omits this.

Best regards.
namo bhagavate śākyamunaye tathāgatāyārhate samyaksaṁbuddhāya | namaḥ sarvabuddhabodhisattvebhyaḥ ||

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