The Tsem Tulku thread.

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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Adamantine » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:44 pm

practitioner wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Well, the basic news is that Tsem, puportedly due to rising exposure by former followers, has fled back to America.

We expect a further post with more details to be forthcoming. If anyone personally knows more valid information or details, without unsubstantiated gossip, feel free to fill in the blanks. It is clear he is in LA from his twitter feed.


Doesn't your post urging people to not to post "unsubstantiated gossip" contain said gossip?


Perhaps. We received a report with more info and a request to reopen the thread to report it. This member appears to be busy or has changed their mind about posting here. Since everyone was quite eager I gave a one-line snippet of info that appears to be accurate. It is certain that he is in the USA, and that there have been problems with his organization in Malaysia regarding disgruntled ex-members –so putting the two together doesn't seem to be wild speculation or unsubstantiated, especially when there seemed to be a credible source for attributing one to the other.

If this member does not come forward soon we will lock the thread once again since it seems to be just a playground for fun at the expense of others which is not the point of this thread or forum.

Regarding controversial teachers: while gossip is not welcome here, it is also good to not inhibit or repress the reporting of important developments that can further illuminate to past, present, or potential students of such a teacher that perhaps they should seek refuge in more authentic places. However, this in itself is controversial so I don't expect a universal agreement about there being a place for this on this forum. I am not sure this new info I mentioned qualifies in this regard, but the rest of the (possibly forthcoming) info may.
Last edited by Adamantine on Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: inserted the quote I was replying to
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby conebeckham » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:48 pm

Apologies for my prior off-topic remark.

I note a new thread about "vetting teachers" may have been the impetus for reopening this thread. Perhaps that could be verified, and this thread re-locked if appropriate?
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Konchog1 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:03 am

[link removed to a website purporting to sell robes blessed by Tsem]

This is not okay.
Last edited by Jikan on Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed link to a site unwelcome at DharmaWheel--see our Terms of Service
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-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JamesWang » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:39 am

Adamantine wrote:
michaelb wrote:Can't someone ask HH Dalai Lama's office about this? To be honest, given Tsem Tulku's massive web presence, I'm surprised no one has already. If I wanted to check the reliability of a Gelug lama, they'd be the first people I'd ask.


I sent them an email years back, when a very similar thread dialogue was happening on Esangha. They never replied to me.

I'd told that the Vajrayana Buddhist Council of Malaysia (www.vbcm.org) has informed the Dalai Lama too. There's nothing they can do, excepting documenting reports of ex-members' experience, which might be useful later.

It's extremely difficult to deal with cultish groups, as they don't limit themselves to ethical behaviour. Almost anything can be done and justified as serving greater good. For example, an former inner circle member reported that another ex-member was accused of stealing and was beaten. So, who dares get involved?
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JamesWang » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:53 am

Adamantine wrote:... the thread... seems to be just a playground for fun at the expense of others which is not the point of this thread or forum.

Fully agree. Let's be civil here. Besides, ridiculing followers (cult or not) aren't helpful at all. Instead, it's likely to trigger them to cling more strongly to the group, and build a stronger "We vs Them" psychological wall.

If you want to be of help, I suggest reading up on religious cults, esp the reports from former members. When you understand it well enough, you know that every cult member (leader included) is suffering tremendously. So, please consider if ridiculing is the way to go.
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JamesWang » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:02 am

Adamantine wrote:Regarding controversial teachers: while gossip is not welcome here, it is also good to not inhibit or repress the reporting of important developments that can further illuminate to past, present, or potential students of such a teacher that perhaps they should seek refuge in more authentic places. However, this in itself is controversial so I don't expect a universal agreement about there being a place for this on this forum. I am not sure this new info I mentioned qualifies in this regard, but the rest of the (possibly forthcoming) info may.

Fully agree. According to cult experts, the best measure is preventive education. If we can't have information on controversial teachers/groups here because of some poor behaviour, then it's a shame, isn't it?
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:28 am

I hope someone from Kechara will post and clear this up. That after TRs recent expansion push, which included having people give up promising careers to work for his organization full time, as well as give money for the new centre in KL and massive retreat property in the countryside (both of which include private residences for him) he has not just picked up and left everyone in the lurch.
Like I said, I actualky hope this is a misunderstanding. TR should not have left without at least asking the monastery in India tosend a lama to Malaysia to take over if he cannot fulfill his responsibilities.
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby WASW » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:05 am

conebeckham wrote:Apologies for my prior off-topic remark.

I note a new thread about "vetting teachers" may have been the impetus for reopening this thread. Perhaps that could be verified, and this thread re-locked if appropriate?


Hi conebeckham - I posted the thread you mention. I started it in response to this thread reopening so as not to derail it, rather than as impetus for this thread to be reopened.
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Jikan » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:17 pm

JamesWang wrote:Fully agree. According to cult experts, the best measure is preventive education. If we can't have information on controversial teachers/groups here because of some poor behaviour, then it's a shame, isn't it?


I agree that information is very important indeed in such cases. That is why I made the decision to reopen this thread, with the hope that some information may be presented that could be useful to people who are affiliated in one way or another with Tsem or his organization, or who may take an interest in the future.

If this thread wanders from facts and into judgments, hyperbole, or table-pounding (or just gets out of control vis a vis The Rules), then I will be proven wrongly-optimistic and the thread relocked.
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby theanarchist » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:46 pm

JamesWang wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
michaelb wrote:Can't someone ask HH Dalai Lama's office about this? To be honest, given Tsem Tulku's massive web presence, I'm surprised no one has already. If I wanted to check the reliability of a Gelug lama, they'd be the first people I'd ask.


I sent them an email years back, when a very similar thread dialogue was happening on Esangha. They never replied to me.

I'd told that the Vajrayana Buddhist Council of Malaysia (http://www.vbcm.org) has informed the Dalai Lama too. There's nothing they can do, excepting documenting reports of ex-members' experience, which might be useful later.


Is there no official statement of the monastery in India where he studied and supposedly got his title, teaching permission etc from? If he is giving tantric empowerment it's surely possible to verify if he is qualified.

Doesn't that monastery have an abbot/root guru who is responsible for and will give information about that guy?

And is it appropriate to use the title tulku for him if there is no verification that he was officially recognized as one by someone who is qualified to do so?
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Konchog1 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:35 pm

Konchog1 wrote:[link removed to a website purporting to sell robes blessed by Tsem]

This is not okay.
Ah sorry about about that. I didn't know that website was banned.

It wasn't robes blessed by Tsem. It was pieces of Tsem's robe.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JamesWang » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:59 am

theanarchist wrote:Is there no official statement of the monastery in India where he studied and supposedly got his title, teaching permission etc from? If he is giving tantric empowerment it's surely possible to verify if he is qualified.

A committee member of Vajrayana Buddhist Council of Malaysia (http://www.vbcm.org/) said Kechara House once applied to become a member. As the leader claims the title of Tulku, besides Rinpoche, VBCM asked for the papers to confirm.

You can contact vbcm2005@yahoo.com for confirmation.
Last edited by Adamantine on Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed reference to an organization that is off limits for discussion per the site rules. (see Terms of Service)
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JamesWang » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:07 am

Konchog1 wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:[link removed to a website purporting to sell robes blessed by Tsem]

This is not okay.
Ah sorry about about that. I didn't know that website was banned.

It wasn't robes blessed by Tsem. It was pieces of Tsem's robe.

Perhaps that's a good idea. We don't want to increase its google page-rank, do we?

Btw, you'd be surprised at how many Malaysian 'Buddhists' would crave for this sort of thing.
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Sherlock » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:22 am

JamesWang wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:[link removed to a website purporting to sell robes blessed by Tsem]

This is not okay.
Ah sorry about about that. I didn't know that website was banned.

It wasn't robes blessed by Tsem. It was pieces of Tsem's robe.

Perhaps that's a good idea. We don't want to increase its google page-rank, do we?

Btw, you'd be surprised at how many Malaysian 'Buddhists' would crave for this sort of thing.


Most Asian Buddhists (Tibetans, Thais, Chinese) like objects of lamas they think are holy a lot, that in itself isn't irregular, what is irregular is selling such things commercially.
Last edited by Adamantine on Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed reference to an organization that is off limits for discussion per the site rules. (see Terms of Service)
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JamesWang » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:28 am

JKhedrup wrote:I hope someone from Kechara will post and clear this up.

I think likely none would.

In the past, we could expect a massive defense streak, perhaps in respond to a standing order. It does seem like they keep a watch on anything negative about them. And I'm sure they are following this. "They" not as in just any member, but inner circle ones. They rest are probably told to back off, since their efforts to promote Tsem failed. (Please refer to how this thread started.) I can imagine them being severely scolded for that.

That after TRs recent expansion push, which included having people give up promising careers to work for his organization full time, as well as give money for the new centre in KL and massive retreat property in the countryside (both of which include private residences for him) he has not just picked up and left everyone in the lurch.

The amount of money is substantial. One rich lady pledged RM70 (USD21.11) million for the forest retreat. He said he would select 108 followers to join him there. When I heard this, I thought, "Oh, man... Is this going to be like Jonestown?"

Like I said, I actualky hope this is a misunderstanding. TR should not have left without at least asking the monastery in India tosend a lama to Malaysia to take over if he cannot fulfill his responsibilities.

Even if he can, I doubt he would want to. He has ordained 'pastors' instead.
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Sherlock » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:20 am

Caz wrote:Now this one made me laugh.
You gotta practise beige !


This is actually a terribly odd video -- he basically openly talks about some cult-like behaviours (slapping followers, ignoring them and not speaking to them for a year etc) and rationalizes them.
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby theanarchist » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:49 am

Sherlock wrote:
Caz wrote:Now this one made me laugh.
You gotta practise beige !


This is actually a terribly odd video -- he basically openly talks about some cult-like behaviours (slapping followers, ignoring them and not speaking to them for a year etc) and rationalizes them.



Wow, that video, that's is really classically manipulative talk...

If he is a monk, how can he dress like that without breaking one of his precepts?
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Jikan » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:27 pm

Would someone please explain to me or one of the moderators what Tsem means by the distinction between "yellow" and "beige" in that video Caz posted, by PM if appropriate?

Thank you.
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby michaelb » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:46 pm

Jikan wrote:Would someone please explain to me or one of the moderators what Tsem means by the distinction between "yellow" and "beige" in that video Caz posted, by PM if appropriate?

He talks about "yellow" as something he does, his lama did and his lama's lama did, etc. Then someone for some reason comes along and says "yellow is not good anymore, do beige instead."
Given his lineage and his lamas, I don't think it takes that much knowledge to work out why zach posted it and that discussion of what he is talking about breaks DW TOS.

The video is very interesting. He pretty much seems to be revelling in his role as cult leader, saying everything he thinks, then saying that of course that's not what he really thinks because if he did he wouldn't get the money and adoration of the "stupid" Malaysians, which he obviously does get. He seems almost psychopathic.
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Jikan » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:59 pm

Thread locked temporarily for review. Friendly but firm reminder:

History has shown discussions about Shugden/Dolgyal on websites such as this one result in flame wars. The management has taken a decision not to allow reference to or any discussion/debate of, and that means from all sides, all things Shugden/Dolgyal including: Teachers, monasteries, associated organizations, images, audio/video, written publications etc.


:rules:
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