kirtu wrote:Seriously???? Just providing quotes from Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Aryadeva, etc. ? These are supposed to show by themselves that Tsongkhapa's view is invalid? Or that you have mastery of Madhyamika? (What is "mastery of Madhyamika" anyway? Whose Madhyamika?)
You came into the thread after the mods deleted most of my posts. I would research past discussions in the search engine on Tsongkhapa.
Like Brunnholzl says: "In fact, the peculiar Gelugpa version of Madhaymaka is a minority position in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, since its uncommon features are neither found in any Indian text nor accepted by any of the other Tibetan schools."
There you go again. Quoting without explaining and understanding the context from which Karl is writing this. Can u give reasons to why is he writing this?
JKhedrup wrote:No, the posts were still there when he said that.
And they were deleted because of the foul language, not the quotes you provided.
Brunholz and Jinpa were the only two really relevant things to the conversation you posted.
Thank you Venerable for clarifying.
Malcolm wrote: ConradTree wrote:
Malcolm wrote:And that is not Rongzom's POV at all.
Well he clearly holds tantra as more definitive than sutra.
Yes, but that does not mean we throw out the five lay vows because they are predicated on a dualistic view, for example, or toss out samaya for the same reason.
I agree, and in fact, majority of the Vajrayana masters emphasized on that. I could quote from Ngari Panchen's Ascertaining the Three Vows on this issue:
"An upholder of lay ordination who is also a pure-awareness holder must,except for signs and rituals of complete ordination, practice all that remains" (page 26)
It summarises the need for us to adhere to fundamental pratimoksha precepts (in fact in a stricter sense, coz in that context, he mentioned the need to follow the bhikkhu's conduct, with exception of ceremonies performed by bhikkhus or ordained ones, the "outer signs of ordination", as commented on by Dudjom Rinpoche).
Hope it helps?
Homage to the Mother of Buddhas as well as of the groups of Hearers and Bodhisattvas
which through knowledge of all leads Hearers seeking pacification to thorough peace
And which through knowledge of paths causes those helping transmigrators to achieve the welfare of the world,
And through possession of which the Subduers set forth these varieties endowed with all aspects.
- Ornament of Clear Realisation