Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 230
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Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:49 am

ConradTree wrote:
Here are some direct quotes from Indian Madhyamaka texts. It is nothing like Tsongkhapa's teaching.


Friend, it's just a suggestion, but as a follower of Je Tsongkhapa's and his view of emptiness, obviously, I have no disagreement with any of those quotes and contend that Tsongkhapa's teaching explains their real meaning. Perhaps you have misunderstood or misinterpreted Je Rinpoche's teaching?

ConradTree
Posts: 303
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Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby ConradTree » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:52 pm

Tsongkhapafan,

Even the gelugs admit Tsongkhapa does not adhere to tradition..

The mods deleted all of this info.

Malcolm
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Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:59 pm

ConradTree wrote:
Malcolm wrote:And that is not Rongzom's POV at all.


Well he clearly holds tantra as more definitive than sutra.


Yes, but that does not mean we throw out the five lay vows because they are predicated on a dualistic view, for example, or toss out samaya for the same reason.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

ConradTree
Posts: 303
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Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby ConradTree » Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:29 pm

kirtu wrote:Seriously???? Just providing quotes from Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Aryadeva, etc. ? These are supposed to show by themselves that Tsongkhapa's view is invalid? Or that you have mastery of Madhyamika? (What is "mastery of Madhyamika" anyway? Whose Madhyamika?)



You came into the thread after the mods deleted most of my posts. I would research past discussions in the search engine on Tsongkhapa.

Like Brunnholzl says:
"In fact, the peculiar Gelugpa version of Madhaymaka is a minority position in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, since its uncommon features are neither found in any Indian text nor accepted by any of the other Tibetan schools."

jiashengrox
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Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby jiashengrox » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:24 pm

ConradTree wrote:
kirtu wrote:Seriously???? Just providing quotes from Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Aryadeva, etc. ? These are supposed to show by themselves that Tsongkhapa's view is invalid? Or that you have mastery of Madhyamika? (What is "mastery of Madhyamika" anyway? Whose Madhyamika?)



You came into the thread after the mods deleted most of my posts. I would research past discussions in the search engine on Tsongkhapa.

Like Brunnholzl says:
"In fact, the peculiar Gelugpa version of Madhaymaka is a minority position in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, since its uncommon features are neither found in any Indian text nor accepted by any of the other Tibetan schools."


There you go again. Quoting without explaining and understanding the context from which Karl is writing this. Can u give reasons to why is he writing this?

JKhedrup wrote:No, the posts were still there when he said that.

And they were deleted because of the foul language, not the quotes you provided.

Brunholz and Jinpa were the only two really relevant things to the conversation you posted.


Thank you Venerable for clarifying. :namaste:

Malcolm wrote:
ConradTree wrote:
Malcolm wrote:And that is not Rongzom's POV at all.


Well he clearly holds tantra as more definitive than sutra.


Yes, but that does not mean we throw out the five lay vows because they are predicated on a dualistic view, for example, or toss out samaya for the same reason.


I agree, and in fact, majority of the Vajrayana masters emphasized on that. I could quote from Ngari Panchen's Ascertaining the Three Vows on this issue:

"An upholder of lay ordination who is also a pure-awareness holder must,except for signs and rituals of complete ordination, practice all that remains" (page 26)

It summarises the need for us to adhere to fundamental pratimoksha precepts (in fact in a stricter sense, coz in that context, he mentioned the need to follow the bhikkhu's conduct, with exception of ceremonies performed by bhikkhus or ordained ones, the "outer signs of ordination", as commented on by Dudjom Rinpoche).

Hope it helps? :namaste:
Homage to the Mother of Buddhas as well as of the groups of Hearers and Bodhisattvas
which through knowledge of all leads Hearers seeking pacification to thorough peace
And which through knowledge of paths causes those helping transmigrators to achieve the welfare of the world,
And through possession of which the Subduers set forth these varieties endowed with all aspects.

- Ornament of Clear Realisation

Malcolm
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Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:38 pm

jiashengrox wrote:I could quote from Ngari Panchen's Ascertaining the Three Vows on this issue:

"An upholder of lay ordination who is also a pure-awareness holder must,except for signs and rituals of complete ordination, practice all that remains" (page 26)

It summarises the need for us to adhere to fundamental pratimoksha precepts (in fact in a stricter sense, coz in that context, he mentioned the need to follow the bhikkhu's conduct, with exception of ceremonies performed by bhikkhus or ordained ones, the "outer signs of ordination", as commented on by Dudjom Rinpoche).


RIght, that I disagree with completely -- this was already rejected by Sakya Pandita in sdom gsum. One only needs to follow the vows which one receives in a given rite.

The intention here comes from symbolic initiation into bhikṣu pratimokṣa in the Anuyoga grand empowerment.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

jiashengrox
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:50 am

Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby jiashengrox » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
The intention here comes from symbolic initiation into bhikṣu pratimokṣa in the Anuyoga grand empowerment.


Would it be possible to support this with evidence? Somehow or another i couldn't find the reason in the same text.

:namaste:
Homage to the Mother of Buddhas as well as of the groups of Hearers and Bodhisattvas
which through knowledge of all leads Hearers seeking pacification to thorough peace
And which through knowledge of paths causes those helping transmigrators to achieve the welfare of the world,
And through possession of which the Subduers set forth these varieties endowed with all aspects.

- Ornament of Clear Realisation

Malcolm
Posts: 12736
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:19 am

Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:49 pm

jiashengrox wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The intention here comes from symbolic initiation into bhikṣu pratimokṣa in the Anuyoga grand empowerment.


Would it be possible to support this with evidence? Somehow or another i couldn't find the reason in the same text.

:namaste:


The reason is not explicitly given.

Take the empowerment yourself (or a similar one, for example, the Shi khro nges don snying po). Then you will see.

No such empowerment exists in the new tantras, and therefore, Sapan does not accept this perspective.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

jiashengrox
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:50 am

Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby jiashengrox » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
jiashengrox wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The intention here comes from symbolic initiation into bhikṣu pratimokṣa in the Anuyoga grand empowerment.


Would it be possible to support this with evidence? Somehow or another i couldn't find the reason in the same text.

:namaste:


The reason is not explicitly given.

Take the empowerment yourself (or a similar one, for example, the Shi khro nges don snying po). Then you will see.

No such empowerment exists in the new tantras, and therefore, Sapan does not accept this perspective.


Ok thank you! Just to check this is the terma by Rigdzin Jatson Nyingpo, and is different from our usual Karling Shitro?

:namaste:
Homage to the Mother of Buddhas as well as of the groups of Hearers and Bodhisattvas
which through knowledge of all leads Hearers seeking pacification to thorough peace
And which through knowledge of paths causes those helping transmigrators to achieve the welfare of the world,
And through possession of which the Subduers set forth these varieties endowed with all aspects.

- Ornament of Clear Realisation

Malcolm
Posts: 12736
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:19 am

Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:15 pm

jiashengrox wrote:Ok thank you! Just to check this is the terma by Rigdzin Jatson Nyingpo, and is different from our usual Karling Shitro?

:namaste:


Yes, Shi khro nges don snying po is a full anuyoga system empowerment in brief form.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

mañjughoṣamaṇi
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Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby mañjughoṣamaṇi » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:49 pm

Norwegian wrote:Chogyal Namkhai Norbu was invited to Mongolia some years ago. He was invited by a Gelug monastery, so he could give teachings on Dzogchen. And so he did. He taught Dzogchen through the lens of Tsongkhapa, on what I believe was Guru Yoga on Tsongkhapa (I apologize if my memory of this is wrong here). So, here you have an incomparable Dzogchen master, invited by Gelugpas, and teaches Dzogchen to them, by way of using Tsongkhapa as the means of doing so.


Yes, he taught the migtsema (dmigs brtse ma) from the perspective of the Dzogchen teachings. You mentioned Zhabkar, and the migtsema was supposed to be a favorite practice of his that he accumulated a large number of in his life.
སེམས་རྣམ་པར་གྲོལ་བར་བྱའི་ཕྱིར་བྱམས་པ་བསྒོམ་པར་བྱའོ།
“In order to completely liberate the mind, cultivate loving kindness.” -- Maitribhāvana Sūtra

Sherab Dorje
Former staff member
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Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:12 pm

MORE off topic posts removed.

Can EVERYBODY please stay on topic and leave aside the personal snides?

Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

kirtu
Former staff member
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Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby kirtu » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:19 pm

ConradTree wrote:
kirtu wrote:Seriously???? Just providing quotes from Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Aryadeva, etc. ? These are supposed to show by themselves that Tsongkhapa's view is invalid? Or that you have mastery of Madhyamika? (What is "mastery of Madhyamika" anyway? Whose Madhyamika?)



You came into the thread after the mods deleted most of my posts. I would research past discussions in the search engine on Tsongkhapa.


No, I saw all the previous postings and responded to some.

Like Brunnholzl says:
"In fact, the peculiar Gelugpa version of Madhaymaka is a minority position in Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, since its uncommon features are neither found in any Indian text nor accepted by any of the other Tibetan schools."


:zzz: Many of us have been down this road before many times on different sides and in different configurations.

What is the purpose of your statements?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

ratna
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Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby ratna » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:02 am

Malcolm wrote:
Take the empowerment yourself (or a similar one, for example, the Shi khro nges don snying po). Then you will see.


Do other Shitros also confer these vows? Isn't Namchö Shitro also Anuyoga? Does this mean we're all bhikṣus in the DC and just don't know it?

Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:19 am

Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:56 am

ratna wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Take the empowerment yourself (or a similar one, for example, the Shi khro nges don snying po). Then you will see.


Do other Shitros also confer these vows? Isn't Namchö Shitro also Anuyoga? Does this mean we're all bhikṣus in the DC and just don't know it?


Not necessarily.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen

michaelb
Posts: 301
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:04 pm

Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby michaelb » Wed Apr 30, 2014 1:34 pm

I've come to this scrap a little late, but I would be really interested if someone could briefly summarize the different positions held. This can be done without sectarian nastiness, I imagine. For example someone had a go at summarizing Gorampa's view here: http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=4056&start=140#p49432 which Malcolm then corrected a little below.

Could we have something like that for Gorampa, Tsongkhapa and others so if we hear a Gelugpa lama teaching about emptiness and a Sakyapa lama teaching about emptiness we don't get confused if they are talking about different things but with the same words. For example, what would they both mean by emptiness, conventional truth, ultimate truth, etc. the same thing or something different?

Even if there are disputes over whether they are right or wrong, surely we should all know what they themselves actually meant?

ConradTree
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Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby ConradTree » Wed Apr 30, 2014 8:50 pm

Here

Malcolm wrote:Emptiness, in Mahāyāna, specifically refers to the absence of the four extremes in phenomena. This is the profound emptiness taught in Mahāyāna according to Gorampa and many other critics of Tsongkhapa, not the mere emptiness of inherent existence which is common which the śravaka systems.

Since phenomena cannot be found by any of the four extremes, they are illusory, and ultimately nonarisen.

michaelb
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Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby michaelb » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:31 pm

ConradTree wrote:Here
Malcolm wrote:Emptiness, in Mahāyāna, specifically refers to the absence of the four extremes in phenomena. This is the profound emptiness taught in Mahāyāna according to Gorampa and many other critics of Tsongkhapa, not the mere emptiness of inherent existence which is common which the śravaka systems.
Since phenomena cannot be found by any of the four extremes, they are illusory, and ultimately nonarisen.
thanks. So, you are saying that Tsongkhapa is saying emptiness is a lack of inherent existence? Don't others also say this? I think Mipham agrees with this but says Tsongkhapa's emptiness is a lack of 'extraneous' true existence (bden grub) not inherent existence (rang bzhin?)

Would Tsongkhapa agree that emptiness for him is a mere emptiness of inherent existence or a lack of extraneous true existence?
Last edited by michaelb on Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ConradTree
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Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby ConradTree » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:34 pm

I assume you are asking Malcolm, because that's his quote

michaelb
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Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:04 pm

Re: Gorampa & Tsongkhapa

Postby michaelb » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:40 pm

ConradTree wrote:I assume you are asking Malcolm, because that's his quote

I'm asking anyone prepared to answer. I think if different people taught different things it's good just to explain what they taught, without getting into the argument over who is right and who isn't. It seems to me that Tibetan polemics is often built on criticising opponents for positions that they don't actually hold, or over-simplifying their position.

To answer the original question, I think Tsongkhapa rejected the Gorampa's type of madhyamaka (freedom from four extremes) as it wasn't rational and meditation on something not rational was like Hva Shang's meditation.

PS. I would like anyone well versed in Tsongkhapa's position to reject any misunderstandings and just simply set his position out, if it can be done simply.


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