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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:32 am 
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My Dharma discussion group has been going through Lam Rim Chen Mo (Snow Lion's English translation) now for the second time, in particular the section on perfections. IN the section dealing with "Joyous Perseverance" in the subsection dealing with the 'power of steadfastness' (volume two p197-199) Je Tsongkhapa uses the term "Pride" in a positive sense, related to "confidence".

Our group was discussing the possibility of a better term that would not easily be confused with the more negative meaning of pride. I thought perhaps 'confidence' but it doesn't seem inclusive enough of the quality discussed.

Any suggestions? Especially from any Tibetan scholars?

Thanks in advance..



I


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:23 am 
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Hi Mudra.

I think I may understand pride in this context, but I agree that perhaps a better word can be used here.

In terms of Joyous perseverance relating to practice, I might suggest the word 'diligence". For example, being diligent about our various practices, being diligent towards mindfulness, diligent of trying to guard the three doors, etc.

Here is a quick definition of diligence that I got off the web...

"-conscientiousness in paying proper attention to a task; giving the degree of care required in a given situation"

It is often said that pride can give rise to arrogance, so as you pointed out the word pride (or at least the way we generally understand it here in the west) may not be the best word to use in this instance. Practicing is one thing, while having a proper motivation to do so is another thing entirely. Diligence is more of the motivation aspect, whereas pride can be seen as more of a resultant thought or emotion, maybe?

What do you think?

(I also think that it is time for me to go through my own copy of this text, I have the same one which you are studying- Thanks!)

Malalu

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:43 am 
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Hi, mudra.

I am no expert, but I have resources (i.e., a large Buddhist library in my home and a laptop).

In the passage you are referring to Lama Tsong Khapa begins by quoting Shantideva, "You should have pride in three areas: action, ability, and afflictions... 'I alone shall do it.'" This is from Bodhi[sattva]caryavatara 7.49. The word in the Tibetan text is apparently nga rgyal, which carries the negative and positive senses of the word "pride," depending on context. The Sanskrit text reads māna.

I have consulted different translations of this verse in Shantideva's text to see what alternatives translators have come up with. B. Alan Wallace and Vesna A. Wallace have "self-confidence." Likewise, Batchelor has "self-confidence." (Padmakara Trans. Group's revised translation reads "pride," as does Crosby & Skilton's version.) In his commentary For the Benefit of All Beings, His Holiness the Dalai Lama says, "Self-confidence is knowing that one has the ability to do something properly and being determined not to give up."

In addition to "self-confidence," I found that the word has also been translated in a positive sense as "assurance." (See http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/nga_rgyal at the bottom of the entry.)

I hope this helps.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:37 am 
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:namaste: mudra, It isn't easy at all to translate words, in a correct form its' subtle meaning.

Pride, as for as I understand; that word is painful ignorance.

Confidence (yes, i can! more humble) is very important on the path, if not; our strenght, courage, diligence; is like a piece of wet soap hopping away out of our hands, back in the water of misperception.

It is needful for the journey from total misperception to a state of knowing. to go through investigation, analyses to nonconceptual understanding.

I think in the state of mind stream is the difference of the quality of those words.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:10 am 
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Also, simple thought: dwelling in pride one uses to see others mistakes while in confidence one can see how to get rid off own defilements and help others in genuine way. :group:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:32 pm 
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Thanks everyone - food for thought.

Malalu, I like the idea of paying thorough attention to detail, but the "joyous" part is very important as it is based on taking joy in doing virtue, rather than a methodic approach. "Wirya" is more leaning towards a drive or motivation than diligence, don't you think?

Sukhamanveti - I guess the Padmakara group were trying to get closer to the original Tibetan. I myself was leaning towards confidence, but I think here 'self-confidence' works better. Though not at all fluent in Tibetan I do know how important context is for certain terms in Tibetan texts. But there is a positive pride in English too.

Muni, you are right, it is not easy. I myself do a lot of translations from English into Indonesian, and the latter, my mother tongue and a very much developed as a lingua franca (there are over 400 languages in the archipelago!) , is very limited in some areas. So over the years I have come to accept that really I needed to be more of an interpreter than a translator if that makes any sense. Each language has its own particular psychology.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:08 pm 
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French Lama Matthieu Ricard used a word fierté. An example of that could be: "A parent is feeling positive pride because a child is growing up as a good person, an example for others."

Whether we impress the material world or we realize the vital energy is not power of the owner ego and use that very power to give us joyful enthusiasm with confidence to higher aspirations.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:20 am 
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muni wrote:
French Lama Matthieu Ricard used a word fierté. An example of that could be: "A parent is feeling positive pride because a child is growing up as a good person, an example for others."

Whether we impress the material world or we realize the vital energy is not power of the owner ego and use that very power to give us joyful enthusiasm with confidence to higher aspirations.


It's true Matthieu almost always finds the "bon mot". For sure in French the word 'fierté' has less negative connotation than "orgueil".
But it is still not quite perfect, as one can be "fier en soi" e.g. but definitely better than the English pride.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:36 am 
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http://french.about.com/od/vocabulary/g/orgueil.htm Yes! That I call poison. Languages are making it us easy but right now they are increasing the categories of affliction. Oh help!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:07 am 
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Assurance or self-assurance perhaps?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:57 am 
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Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Assurance or self-assurance perhaps?


Self-assurance sounds good.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:29 pm 
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To be the lowest among all, and then confidence in our nature is a help to open the nasty coconut-peel of ego-ignorance.

Self confidence. To see the fictitious knower bathing in defilements=dissolves.

Assurance? How?

Trust?

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