HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

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HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:25 pm

http://www.kagyumonlam.org/English/Vide ... 21220.html


Announcing a live Webcast Teaching by HH the Gyalwang Karmapa:
Je Tsongkapa's Three Principal Aspects of the Path: Lamrim Teaching

November 1st and 2nd, 2013
Session 1 - 10:00 am - 1:00 pm
Session 2 - 2:30 pm - 5:00 pm

http://kagyuoffice.org/
May All Benefit!
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A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:31 pm

The interesting part is that he will gloss the root text using a commentary by the great Kagyu master Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye.
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby Konchog1 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:05 am

It reminds me of how Tsongkhapa took his refuge vows from the Fourth Karmapa. And the Eighth Karmapa wrote this:

In Praise Of The Incomparable Tsongkhapa

Once when Gyalwa Mikyo Dorje was travelling through the Charida Pass, thoughts of the incomparable Tsongkhapa welled up within him. Overcome by profound faith, he was moved to compose the poem below.

At a time when nearly all in this Northern Land
Were living in utter contradiction to Dharma,
Without illusion, O Tsongkhapa, you polished the teachings.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

When the teachings of the Sakya, Kargu, Kadam
And Nyingma sects in Tibet were declining,
You, O Tsongkhapa, revived the Buddha’s Doctrine,
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

Manjushri, the Bodhisattva of Wisdom, gave to you
Special instructions on the thought of Nagarjuna.
O Tsongkhapa, upholder of the Middle Way,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

“Mind and form are not empty of their own natures
But are empty of truly existent mind and form”,
You, O Tsongkhapa, are Tibet’s chief exponent of Emptiness,
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

In merely a few years you filled
The land from China to India
With peerless holders of the saffron robes.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

Those who become your followers
And look to you and your teachings
Are never again disappointed or forsaken.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

The trainees who walk in your footsteps
Breath the fresh air of the Great Way.
They would die for the good of the world.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

Anyone who disparages your doctrine must face
The terrible wrath of the Dharma protectors.
O Tsongkhapa, who abides in truth’s power,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

In person and in dreams you come to those
Who but once recollect your image.
O Tsongkhapa, who watches with compassionate eyes.
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

In order to civilize men and spirits you spread
Your teachings through Kham, Mongolia and Turkestan:
O Tsongkhapa, subduer of savages,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

For men coarse and far from the Way, you dispel
Mental clouds, evils and bad karma.
O Tsongkhapa, who bestows quick progress,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

Those who take heartfelt Refuge in you,
Even those with no hope for now or hereafter,
O Tsongkhapa, have their every wish fulfilled.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

Having exposed false teachings transgressing
The excellent ways well shown by Buddha,
You firmly established your Bold Doctrine.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

Manifesting sublime austerity and discipline,
The form and fragrance of your life was incomparable.
O Tsongkhapa, controlled one pleasing to the Buddhas,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.

By the strength of the sons of your lineage
And by my having faithfully offered this praise,
May the enlightened activity of Buddha Shakyamuni
Pervade the earth for ages to come.

Footnote: Extracted from the Life and Teachings of Tsong Khapa (Edited by Prof. R. Thurman)
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby smcj » Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:44 am

Start of paragraph 4:
“Mind and form are not empty of their own natures
But are empty of truly existent mind and form”,

That's an interesting take on Tsongkhapa. It's in quotes in the poem. I wonder if that means Tsongkhapa said it.
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby Konchog1 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:21 am

smcj wrote:Start of paragraph 4:
“Mind and form are not empty of their own natures
But are empty of truly existent mind and form”,

That's an interesting take on Tsongkhapa. It's in quotes in the poem. I wonder if that means Tsongkhapa said it.
I think it's an awkward translation of Tsongkhapa saying that mind and form aren't empty of appearance but empty of ultimate existence.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby Glyn » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:13 am

This sort of thing makes my bitter heart briefly happy. Really when the sun of non-sectarianism shines we should all rejoice. One of my root-Gurus is basically a Dzogchen master, but his teachings that benefitted me most were from Tsongkhapa and Drakpa Gyaltsen. Yesterday a Sakya Lama gave me tons of Ganges Mahamudra recordings from Sangye Nyenpa Rinpoche. So often have I pissed in the nectar of pure teachings with my own sectarian biases and the karmic fruit is ripening like a living nightmare, but the kindess of these lamas makes it all survivable.
"It's not ok to practice Dharma sometimes, just when you feel like it. You have to practice all the time" - Lama Rigzin Rinpoche.
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby smcj » Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:01 am

Konchog1 wrote:
smcj wrote:Start of paragraph 4:
“Mind and form are not empty of their own natures
But are empty of truly existent mind and form”,

That's an interesting take on Tsongkhapa. It's in quotes in the poem. I wonder if that means Tsongkhapa said it.
I think it's an awkward translation of Tsongkhapa saying that mind and form aren't empty of appearance but empty of ultimate existence.

Yes, that would be more in keeping with what I know of him. But it really sounds like... :stirthepot:
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:38 pm

I think this shows why it is important to receive transmissions and commentaries of Tsongkhapa's works from Gelugpa lineage Teachers. It's not sectarian to want to follow only one tradition whilst respecting all others, for receiving mistaken interpretations for the sake of a false understanding of non-sectarianism is not cool and simply causes the teachings to degenerate in the long run. We need to be sure that the Teacher possesses the necessary qualifications for giving commentarial explanations in a tradition they have not been trained in.

May pure Dharma teachings in the Four traditions flourish forever more.
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:41 pm

Tsongkhapafan... For those who appreciate both HH Karmapa and the works of Lama Tzongkhapa. why not let us enjoy the teaching.

Perhaps you should watch it too... before making judgements in the name of your quest to "preserve the tradition". It gets rather boring.
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:44 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:I think this shows why it is important to receive transmissions and commentaries of Tsongkhapa's works from Gelugpa lineage Teachers. It's not sectarian to want to follow only one tradition whilst respecting all others, for receiving mistaken interpretations for the sake of a false understanding of non-sectarianism is not cool and simply causes the teachings to degenerate in the long run. We need to be sure that the Teacher possesses the necessary qualifications for giving commentarial explanations in a tradition they have not been trained in.

May pure Dharma teachings in the Four traditions flourish forever more.



You are basically disparaging Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye with your comment, which is quite rude. if you do not know about his great achievements then ok. but if you know how great of a learned enlightened bodhisattva he was then its not ok.
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:45 pm

and the three principal aspects of the path is not Tsongkapa's invention. the same three principal aspect's are practiced in all the four schools of Buddhism
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:45 pm

To suggest HH Karmapa is not qualified to teach this text is absurd.

And if you'd bothered to research the teaching at all you would know he is using a commentary to Tzongkhapa's 3 Aspects by the great Kagyu and Rimed master Jamgon Kongtrul Lodro Thaye. So evidently this "degeneration" as you say goes back several generations.

, for receiving mistaken interpretations

Do us all a favour and listen to the teaching before you comment.
How can you possibly say it's mistaken without either hearing the Karmapa's teaching or reading Jamgon Kongtrul's text?

And don't forget that Lama Tzongkhapa received vows from the Fourth Karmapa so it is most fitting that the Karmapa present this text. It beautifully pays tribute to a connection between the Kagyu and Gelug traditions that goes back centuries.
http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... khapa.html

Tsongkhapa was not like an ordinary child. He never misbehaved; he instinctively engaged in bodhisattva type actions; and he was extremely intelligent and always wanted to learn everything. At the age of three, he took lay vows from the Fourth Karmapa, Rolpay-dorjey (Kar-ma-pa Rol-pa’i rdo-rje) (1340-1383).


In Central Tibet, Tsongkhapa first studied at a Drigung Kagyu monastery, where he learned the Drigung mahamudra tradition called "possessing five" (phyag-chen lnga-ldan), medicine, and further details about bodhichitta. By seventeen, he was a skilled doctor. He then studied Filigree of Realizations (mNgon-rtogs-rgyan, Skt. Abhisamayalamkara), the other texts of Maitreya, and prajnaparamita (phar-phyin, far-reaching discriminating awareness) at several Nyingma, Kagyu, Kadam, and Sakya monasteries, memorizing the texts in just days. By nineteen, he was already acknowledged as a great scholar.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby Karma Dorje » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:23 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:I think this shows why it is important to receive transmissions and commentaries of Tsongkhapa's works from Gelugpa lineage Teachers. It's not sectarian to want to follow only one tradition whilst respecting all others, for receiving mistaken interpretations for the sake of a false understanding of non-sectarianism is not cool and simply causes the teachings to degenerate in the long run. We need to be sure that the Teacher possesses the necessary qualifications for giving commentarial explanations in a tradition they have not been trained in.

May pure Dharma teachings in the Four traditions flourish forever more.


You say that with no trace of irony? By that logic, there are almost no tantric teachings we should take from Geluk teachers as almost the entire corpus that is now practiced all came from other schools, whether Sakya, Jonang or Kagyu (not to mention the Nyingma practices that HHDL has promoted so strenuously). The ordination lineages as well.

Don't be stupid. It is narrow sectarianism and triumphalism that indicate that the teachings have degenerated as the discrimination of beings it weak while their anger and zeal have grown.
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby conebeckham » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:43 pm

Tsongkhapafan doesn't have to listen to any of this, you guys. He's free to do as he wants, following his organization's Blueprint for Spiritual Purity to the letter. Nevermind that Tsong Khapa himself was the greatest synthesizer of Buddhist traditions in Tibetan history, and in some sense the most Trans-sectarian Lama ever. It's only subsequent followers of a tradition that he didn't really even "start" who would claim that only those exclusive to that tradition could be said to elucidate Tsong Khapa's works.

Never mind comment or criticize.

This, however...:
We need to be sure that the Teacher possesses the necessary qualifications for giving commentarial explanations in a tradition they have not been trained in.
presupposes too much. TsongKhapafan, do you have any evidence to back up your implicit assertion that the commentary used does not reflect "a tradition.." the author has "not been trained in?"
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:04 pm

I apologise to anyone offended by my comments. The reason why I wrote my comment was the quote from the text by the Karmapa:

“Mind and form are not empty of their own natures
But are empty of truly existent mind and form”


Either this is a clumsy translation by Robert Thurman or it reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of Tsongkhapa's view, as he asserted that, when we search with wisdom, no true nature can be found other than a lack of inherent existence. The verse could be read that there is a conventional nature that can be found upon investigation.
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby Simon E. » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:17 pm

I am not sure that this is the right place for a Rangtong/Shentong debate Tsonghkhapa fan.
It might be interesting in a seperate thread ? Or refresh an existing one ?
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:08 pm

Simon E. wrote:I am not sure that this is the right place for a Rangtong/Shentong debate Tsonghkhapa fan.
It might be interesting in a seperate thread ? Or refresh an existing one ?


Hi Simon, that wasn't my point - what I was suggesting was that commentary to Tsongkhapa's works should not be given by those outside the Gelugpa tradition as they may not understand it and may misrepresent it. Each Tradition has its own unique and precious features which are not understood by those who are not lineage holders (those who have practised within the tradition and mastered its teachings completely). It would therefore seem to me that the teachings of each tradition should be taught only by those who have mastered them by gaining practical experience.
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:29 pm

they all come from the same texts and they all talk about the same truth. you disparaging basically HH Karmapa that hes not qualified to teach a text that was made by His Student in previous lifetime.

you seem overly sectarian. why would you even think that HH Karmapa does not have the wisdom and experience to expound the text correctly. and besides he is teaching from Jamgön Kongtrul the first's commentary. and you are disparaging him also not being qualified to write a commentary about tsongkapas text since he himself is not a gelugpa.

as i said before the three principal aspects of the path is not original ''concept's '' of Tsongkapa but are practiced in all the four schools of tibetan buddhism way before tsongkapa. mainly renunciation, bodhicitta and emptiness. now if you want to go on with your talk that nobody except the gelugpas understand those principal aspects of the path go on... :pig:

how can you say that other lineage masters such as HH Karmapa who is one of the highest masters in tibetan buddhism of our era, dont have the correct understanding of renunciation, bodhicitta and emptiness. even if the shentong and rangtong view's differ in some aspects they complement each other.

Tsongkhapafan wrote: Each Tradition has its own unique and precious features which are not understood by those who are not lineage holders (those who have practised within the tradition and mastered its teachings completely). It would therefore seem to me that the teachings of each tradition should be taught only by those who have mastered them by gaining practical experience.


:crazy:

really are you saying Karmapa or Jamgon Kongtrul doesnt have practical experience of the three principal aspects of the path. they are only experienced by gelugpas?
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby Norwegian » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:31 pm

Tsongkhapafan,

Your remarks are so ignorant and laughable it's downright depressing. I understand you are with the NKT, and as such you follow their standard on how to be as secterian as possible, but this behaviour is not desirable, nor is it wanted here, as people have kindly asked you to stop.

So would you please do us all a favor and stop derailing this thread.
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Re: HH Karmapa UTD to teach 3 Principal Aspects of Path

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:44 pm

I am actually heartened what has come out of the remarks. It has shown me that many on DW will challenge sectarian attitudes when they emerge on the forum, and have a genuine respect for teachers of all the traditions.

The statement and belief held by the sectarian camp that studying different traditions leads to "confusion" is laughable, because, as mentioned above, Lama Tzongkhapa himself studied with masters of many of Tibet's different Buddhist traditions during his lifetime. And if Gelugpas are not supposed to emulate Lama Tzongkhapa as a role model, who else would you suggest?

Now I should get back to preparing for the outlines of a Sakya text, because I will have to translate a Gelugpa geshe's commentary on it tomorrow. Last term we presented Words of My Perfect Teacher. So far no one has complained that the teachings have resulted in confusion- in fact exactly they opposite, they said how things became clearer and richer from looking at a different presentation. :popcorn:
Last edited by JKhedrup on Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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