Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote: DKR has a bad attitude about westerners. Its a pity really.

I kind of agree, but he has had a lot of experience with westerners, and seems to be quite appreciatve of western culture. Maybe he has a point?


A point about what? He does not understand us.

I'm not so sure about that. Have you been to any of his empowerments?
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Indrajala » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:31 pm

heart wrote:Actually, Mahayana might have been taught by the Buddha. The archeological proofs are becoming just as solid as for the Hinayana scriptures.

/magnus


Are you just making this up or do you have evidence?
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:His argument is at base a species of cultural chauvinism. This cultural chauvinism that DKR frequently expresses in his lectures is distressingly blind.

As someone said:
One cannot disassociate emptiness from vividness.
This inseparability I was told is the Guru.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with depending on chauvinist lamas.
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby smcj » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:43 pm

Sorry, but I have met many Tibetans and even Tibetan lamas and teachers, for the most part their minds are just as infected with worms as ours appear to be.


It's not that we have defilements and they don't. It's more that our culture creates chaotic and confused people. Our religion's credibility collapsed, and our society is complicated and quickly changing. Philosophically, politically, socially, interpersonally, privately, and even intimately our lives are chaotic. The tendency is for people to become either frightened and overwhelmed ot selfish and happy to get their own needs met. Their society was, on the village level, very simple and straightforward. Their religion, which was 100% credible, gave them a way to see their place in the universe, and it was good. Their educational system took a simple premise and developed it towards true and complete understanding. It's our fundamental chaos that is only expanded/elaborated on by our educational system that they can't get. "How can this person be so intelligent and educated and still be a whack job?" But bless their hearts, they do what they can.
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Indrajala » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:53 pm

smcj wrote:It's not that we have defilements and they don't. It's more that our culture creates chaotic and confused people.


That's a rather romantic and charitable image.

First world and third world problems differ, but nevertheless both sides have their struggles. For the poor, suffering is more physical. For the rich, suffering is more mental.
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:08 pm

heart wrote:Actually, Mahayana might have been taught by the Buddha. The archeological proofs are becoming just as solid as for the Hinayana scriptures.

/magnus


Really, what proof?
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby smcj » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:10 pm

Indrajala wrote:
smcj wrote:It's not that we have defilements and they don't. It's more that our culture creates chaotic and confused people.


That's a rather romantic and charitable image.

There are no tibetan Kafkas, Borges or Phillip K. Dicks. And I'll wager that if you got a tibetan lama to read something by them they wouldn't get it, and they'd say, "Huh? WTF is this?" But when we read about Nagarjuna we take it as validating our existential confusion!
Last edited by smcj on Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:17 pm

smcj wrote: It's more that our culture creates chaotic and confused people.


Sorry, I guess I just can't by into this way of thinking. Most of the people I know are neither chaotic or confused. In fact the most chaotic, the most confused people I have ever met, apart from rock and rollers, were Buddhists in Dharma centers.
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby smcj » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote: It's more that our culture creates chaotic and confused people.


Sorry, I guess I just can't by into this way of thinking. Most of the people I know are neither chaotic or confused. In fact the most chaotic, the most confused people I have ever met, apart from rock and rollers, were Buddhists in Dharma centers.

How many people do you know that believe that there is no intrinsic purpose or meaning to life, and that we just have to make it enjoyable on our own terms? Or how about the opposite? How about the christian fundamentalist that sees the modern world as a threat and must be bullied into conforming to their beliefs?
Last edited by smcj on Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Karma Dorje » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:Actually, Mahayana might have been taught by the Buddha. The archeological proofs are becoming just as solid as for the Hinayana scriptures.

/magnus


Really, what proof?


Yes, Magnus... what proof? After all, you know what they say: No soteriology without archeology.
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:44 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:I'm not so sure about that. Have you been to any of his empowerments?


No, I have not, precisely because of the kinds of things he says.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Have you been to any of his empowerments?

No, I have not, precisely because of the kinds of things he says.

Well, I have. I think I am at least as western as you, and I did not get the impression that he does not understand us. Are we really that hard to understand? He's not stupid, you know.
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Karma Dorje » Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:13 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Have you been to any of his empowerments?

No, I have not, precisely because of the kinds of things he says.

Well, I have. I think I am at least as western as you, and I did not get the impression that he does not understand us. Are we really that hard to understand? He's not stupid, you know.


I've found him to be quite ecumenical in his criticism; he is intensely critical of the form of Tibetan institutions and the often realized potential for abuse. What on earth is this "Western mind" people keep talking about? As a "Westerner" I completely sympathize with his puzzlement about Buddhologists who aren't also practitioners. It has always amazed me to find creatures that spend their entire life studying something in the abstract without putting it into practice. I suppose it is a way to make a cozy little living and to increase one's cred with undergrad hippie chicks, but aside from that it seems a pretty bloodless discipline.

There's no yawning gulf between Tibetans and Westerners, as far as I can see. Same afflictions, same institutional bugbears, same overweening conceits of intellectual prowess...
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby heart » Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:Actually, Mahayana might have been taught by the Buddha. The archeological proofs are becoming just as solid as for the Hinayana scriptures.

/magnus


Really, what proof?


It is actually old news http://www.tricycle.com/feature/whose-b ... page=0%2C0

But it seems to take some time to land.

/magnus
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:38 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:Actually, Mahayana might have been taught by the Buddha. The archeological proofs are becoming just as solid as for the Hinayana scriptures.

/magnus


Really, what proof?


It is actually old news http://www.tricycle.com/feature/whose-b ... page=0%2C0

But it seems to take some time to land.

/magnus

Does that article provide some evidence that Mahayana might have been taught by the Buddha? I looked through it and I didn't see anything like that.
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:45 pm

heart wrote:But it seems to take some time to land.

/magnus



Sorry Magnus, this does not rate.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:47 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Have you been to any of his empowerments?

No, I have not, precisely because of the kinds of things he says.

Well, I have. I think I am at least as western as you, and I did not get the impression that he does not understand us. Are we really that hard to understand? He's not stupid, you know.



Many people with entrenched biases are not stupid.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:49 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:There's no yawning gulf between Tibetans and Westerners, as far as I can see. Same afflictions, same institutional bugbears, same overweening conceits of intellectual prowess...


It would be nice of Tibetan exponents of Buddhism such as Dzongsar would cease advertising how much more afflicted and so on Westerners are supposed to be. So far as I know, no incarnated Lama has ever been murdered by their own Western students.
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby dzogchungpa » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:36 am

Malcolm wrote:Many people with entrenched biases are not stupid.

Yes, and DJKR is not one of them.
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Alfredo » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:39 am

Magnus, when you put it that way, the Buddha might just as easily have been a Jehovah's Witness.

When I consider the contributions of Religious Studies to Buddhology, I see what amounts to a tsunami of high-quality academic works on virtually every area of Buddhism imaginable. Scholars protest that the field is too huge, and they've only made a beginning, but this "Western" (read "academic"; there are a bunch of Asians involved too) influence is responsible for a veritable golden age of critical Buddhist scholarship which has broadened and deepened the understanding of "outsiders" and Buddhists alike. Just look at your library's holdings (not to mention internet-based resources), and tell me we're not living in a golden age, comparable to earlier transmissions of Buddhism and their associated cultural florescences.
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