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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:52 pm
by Malcolm
Karma Dorje wrote:
There's nothing abstract about genuine love. It's immediate and obvious. Biological self-perpetuation on the other hand, that's a huge ideological abstraction.
Love is not a purpose, and does not lend itself to imbuing meaning on a cosmic scale.

Life is only meaningful to those who find meaning in it. Buddha clearly didn't which is why he recommended cessation.

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:56 pm
by heart
Malcolm wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
There's nothing abstract about genuine love. It's immediate and obvious. Biological self-perpetuation on the other hand, that's a huge ideological abstraction.
Love is not a purpose, and does not lend itself to imbuing meaning on a cosmic scale.

Life is only meaningful to those who find meaning in it. Buddha clearly didn't which is why he recommended cessation.
? are you serious?

/magnus

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:03 pm
by Malcolm
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
There's nothing abstract about genuine love. It's immediate and obvious. Biological self-perpetuation on the other hand, that's a huge ideological abstraction.
Love is not a purpose, and does not lend itself to imbuing meaning on a cosmic scale.

Life is only meaningful to those who find meaning in it. Buddha clearly didn't which is why he recommended cessation.
? are you serious?

/magnus
Yes, completely. The entire teaching of Buddha Dharma is based on the meaningless of samsara and ending the process of taking rebirth in it. Life = samsara. If samsara is meaningless, so is life. The ultimate desiderata is to bring the whole cycle to an end. Since sentient beings are endless, that will never happen. Nevertheless, the primary goal of Buddhadharma is to achieve a nirvana in which nothing is left behind.

M

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:09 pm
by heart
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, completely. The entire teaching of Buddha Dharma is based on meaningless of samsara and ending the process of taking rebirth in it. Life = samsara. If samsara is meaningless, so is life. The ultimate desiderata is to bring the whole cycle to an end. Since sentient beings are endless, that will never happen. Nevertheless, the primary goal of Buddhadharma is to achieve a nirvana in which nothing is left behind.

M
If you stay in the natural state samsara stops, that is the only cessation the Buddha ever taught.

/magnus

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:10 pm
by Pero
I'm surprised to be hearing that there is a meaning of life from Buddhists... No teaching I ever heard or read indicated so, but more like the opposite, like Malcolm is saying.

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:19 pm
by JKhedrup
Being able to bring forth the mind of renunciation of samsara is said to be the gateway to authentic practice in many of the texts.

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:23 pm
by Glyn
Malcolm wrote: Ironically, it appears to me that many Tibetan exponents of Buddhism view the modern world as a threat, in much the same way they regard science as a threat.
There has been various attempts at bringing science into monasteries, but the efforts seems to have either not been consistent enough or widespread enough as there are many very well educated monastics who really do see it as a threat because they don't understand it or they equate it with technological progress which leads to atomic weaponry.

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:26 pm
by JKhedrup
There has been some success in this area, actually. Because this is a major area of interest of HHDL, there seems to be movement especially in the Gelug Monasteries of Southern India.

http://shambhalasun.com/news/?p=48400

http://www.scienceformonks.org/

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:39 pm
by Malcolm
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, completely. The entire teaching of Buddha Dharma is based on meaningless of samsara and ending the process of taking rebirth in it. Life = samsara. If samsara is meaningless, so is life. The ultimate desiderata is to bring the whole cycle to an end. Since sentient beings are endless, that will never happen. Nevertheless, the primary goal of Buddhadharma is to achieve a nirvana in which nothing is left behind.

M
If you stay in the natural state samsara stops, that is the only cessation the Buddha ever taught.

/magnus

That's simple not true, Magnus, it is especially untrue with respect to Dzogchen.

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:52 pm
by KonchokZoepa
Pero wrote:I'm surprised to be hearing that there is a meaning of life from Buddhists... No teaching I ever heard or read indicated so, but more like the opposite, like Malcolm is saying.
then you havent studied shantidevas bodhicharyavatara. or other mahayana text's that deal with motivation of life.

i think it is pretty damn nihilistic to say that there is no meaning in life. and i dont equal life = samsara, since in life there is also buddhanature which is untouched by samsara so it is not the same thing.

mahayana buddhist could maybe say that there is no meaning in theyre life other than helping others, so they have no meaning for themselves or theyre personal pursuits of life etc but to say that all life has no meaning is dammn nihilistic and i dont think they teach that either in the teachings of buddha.

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:53 pm
by futerko
Malcolm wrote:Sorry, I guess I just can't by into this way of thinking. Most of the people I know are neither chaotic or confused. In fact the most chaotic, the most confused people I have ever met, apart from rock and rollers, were Buddhists in Dharma centers.
Possibly this accounts for the bias in DKR's impression of Westerners?

"rock and rollers"!? how very quaint of you. :tongue:

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:55 pm
by Malcolm
KonchokZoepa wrote: then you havent studied shantidevas bodhicharyavatara. or other mahayana text's that deal with motivation of life.
These texts deal with one's motivation for awakening, which is predicated on the fact that life has no intrinsic meaning. Being born, living, dying are all intrinsically meaningless from the perspective of Buddhadharma.

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:00 pm
by Pero
KonchokZoepa wrote:
Pero wrote:I'm surprised to be hearing that there is a meaning of life from Buddhists... No teaching I ever heard or read indicated so, but more like the opposite, like Malcolm is saying.
then you havent studied shantidevas bodhicharyavatara. or other mahayana text's that deal with motivation of life.
So could you please provide me with quotes that say there is some meaning of life?

mahayana buddhist could maybe say that there is no meaning in theyre life other than helping others, so they have no meaning for themselves or theyre personal pursuits of life etc but to say that all life has no meaning is dammn nihilistic and i dont think they teach that either in the teachings of buddha.
There is a difference between "a meaning of life" and "a meaning to someone's life".

In regards to meaning of life, the best things I've ever read is this (from Barefoot Zen):
"A student asked a sage:
"What gives life its meaning?"
The sage replied:
"Death, since without it, life loses its meaning."

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:00 pm
by KonchokZoepa
yes i agree with that, malcolm

about the earlier posts, basically is a play on words saying if life has meaning or not, others maybe like to express that the meaning of life is to liberate all sentient beings, without drawing the conclusion that life = samsara, i dont agree with that since life=buddhanature as a plus to that.

to others saying that life has no meaning sounds very nihilistic and not a perspective of buddhadharma. but people have different constructions in theyre mind how they understand things so there happens misunderstandings. i am happy that you can explain and express your self clearly so there is no contradictions.

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:01 pm
by KonchokZoepa
Pero wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:
Pero wrote:I'm surprised to be hearing that there is a meaning of life from Buddhists... No teaching I ever heard or read indicated so, but more like the opposite, like Malcolm is saying.
then you havent studied shantidevas bodhicharyavatara. or other mahayana text's that deal with motivation of life.
So could you please provide me with quotes that say there is some meaning of life?

no since you are missing the point of what i intended to communicate by refering to the text, read the earlier post i just posted.

in example the refuge and bodhicitta prayer, the bodhicitta part can be understood as motivation for life or the meaning of life.

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:11 pm
by Pero
KonchokZoepa wrote:in example the refuge and bodhicitta prayer, the bodhicitta part can be understood as motivation for life or the meaning of life.
No, that is a motivation one can have in life but it is not some kind of grand meaning of life.

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:31 pm
by heart
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
If you stay in the natural state samsara stops, that is the only cessation the Buddha ever taught.

/magnus
That's simple not true, Magnus, it is especially untrue with respect to Dzogchen.
We will have to agree to disagree then.

/magnus

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:50 pm
by Malcolm
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
If you stay in the natural state samsara stops, that is the only cessation the Buddha ever taught.

/magnus
That's simple not true, Magnus, it is especially untrue with respect to Dzogchen.
We will have to agree to disagree then.

/magnus
You need to read the Pali suttas.

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:55 pm
by KonchokZoepa
Pero wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:in example the refuge and bodhicitta prayer, the bodhicitta part can be understood as motivation for life or the meaning of life.
No, that is a motivation one can have in life but it is not some kind of grand meaning of life.
motivation for life to liberate all sentient beings, or the meaning of life is to liberate all sentient beings.

what is the difference between those two?

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:03 pm
by KonchokZoepa
and like malcom said in some post that life doesnt have any intrinsic meaning in it.

it is not to say that life does not have any meaning. that is nihilistic.

i would say life has no intrinsic meaning also... but it has a meaning if you give it a meaning.

and to refer again what malcolm said that life=samsara, is not a static truth or a fact. you can view it that way but it does not mean it is. if someone if associates in theyre mind that buddhanature is part of life then how is buddhanature samsaric?

personally i dont like to think that life=samsara.

i would make a distinction between life and samsaric life.

in general life is imbued with all the enlightened qualites and not just the samsaric qualities. for me if someone says life=samsara i see it that you are falling into the other extreme. samsara and nirvana. life is both, maybe the samsara is a tree and nirvana is a seed but its not non existent even in the midst of samsara, so life for me has a meaning.