Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:52 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
There's nothing abstract about genuine love. It's immediate and obvious. Biological self-perpetuation on the other hand, that's a huge ideological abstraction.


Love is not a purpose, and does not lend itself to imbuing meaning on a cosmic scale.

Life is only meaningful to those who find meaning in it. Buddha clearly didn't which is why he recommended cessation.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby heart » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
There's nothing abstract about genuine love. It's immediate and obvious. Biological self-perpetuation on the other hand, that's a huge ideological abstraction.


Love is not a purpose, and does not lend itself to imbuing meaning on a cosmic scale.

Life is only meaningful to those who find meaning in it. Buddha clearly didn't which is why he recommended cessation.


? are you serious?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:03 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
There's nothing abstract about genuine love. It's immediate and obvious. Biological self-perpetuation on the other hand, that's a huge ideological abstraction.


Love is not a purpose, and does not lend itself to imbuing meaning on a cosmic scale.

Life is only meaningful to those who find meaning in it. Buddha clearly didn't which is why he recommended cessation.


? are you serious?

/magnus


Yes, completely. The entire teaching of Buddha Dharma is based on the meaningless of samsara and ending the process of taking rebirth in it. Life = samsara. If samsara is meaningless, so is life. The ultimate desiderata is to bring the whole cycle to an end. Since sentient beings are endless, that will never happen. Nevertheless, the primary goal of Buddhadharma is to achieve a nirvana in which nothing is left behind.

M
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby heart » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Yes, completely. The entire teaching of Buddha Dharma is based on meaningless of samsara and ending the process of taking rebirth in it. Life = samsara. If samsara is meaningless, so is life. The ultimate desiderata is to bring the whole cycle to an end. Since sentient beings are endless, that will never happen. Nevertheless, the primary goal of Buddhadharma is to achieve a nirvana in which nothing is left behind.

M


If you stay in the natural state samsara stops, that is the only cessation the Buddha ever taught.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Pero » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:10 pm

I'm surprised to be hearing that there is a meaning of life from Buddhists... No teaching I ever heard or read indicated so, but more like the opposite, like Malcolm is saying.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby JKhedrup » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:19 pm

Being able to bring forth the mind of renunciation of samsara is said to be the gateway to authentic practice in many of the texts.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Glyn » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:Ironically, it appears to me that many Tibetan exponents of Buddhism view the modern world as a threat, in much the same way they regard science as a threat.


There has been various attempts at bringing science into monasteries, but the efforts seems to have either not been consistent enough or widespread enough as there are many very well educated monastics who really do see it as a threat because they don't understand it or they equate it with technological progress which leads to atomic weaponry.
"It's not ok to practice Dharma sometimes, just when you feel like it. You have to practice all the time" - Lama Rigzin Rinpoche.
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby JKhedrup » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:26 pm

There has been some success in this area, actually. Because this is a major area of interest of HHDL, there seems to be movement especially in the Gelug Monasteries of Southern India.

http://shambhalasun.com/news/?p=48400

http://www.scienceformonks.org/
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
-Atisha Dipamkara
brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Location: the Netherlands and India

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:39 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, completely. The entire teaching of Buddha Dharma is based on meaningless of samsara and ending the process of taking rebirth in it. Life = samsara. If samsara is meaningless, so is life. The ultimate desiderata is to bring the whole cycle to an end. Since sentient beings are endless, that will never happen. Nevertheless, the primary goal of Buddhadharma is to achieve a nirvana in which nothing is left behind.

M


If you stay in the natural state samsara stops, that is the only cessation the Buddha ever taught.

/magnus



That's simple not true, Magnus, it is especially untrue with respect to Dzogchen.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:52 pm

Pero wrote:I'm surprised to be hearing that there is a meaning of life from Buddhists... No teaching I ever heard or read indicated so, but more like the opposite, like Malcolm is saying.


then you havent studied shantidevas bodhicharyavatara. or other mahayana text's that deal with motivation of life.

i think it is pretty damn nihilistic to say that there is no meaning in life. and i dont equal life = samsara, since in life there is also buddhanature which is untouched by samsara so it is not the same thing.

mahayana buddhist could maybe say that there is no meaning in theyre life other than helping others, so they have no meaning for themselves or theyre personal pursuits of life etc but to say that all life has no meaning is dammn nihilistic and i dont think they teach that either in the teachings of buddha.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby futerko » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:Sorry, I guess I just can't by into this way of thinking. Most of the people I know are neither chaotic or confused. In fact the most chaotic, the most confused people I have ever met, apart from rock and rollers, were Buddhists in Dharma centers.


Possibly this accounts for the bias in DKR's impression of Westerners?

"rock and rollers"!? how very quaint of you. :tongue:
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:55 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:then you havent studied shantidevas bodhicharyavatara. or other mahayana text's that deal with motivation of life.


These texts deal with one's motivation for awakening, which is predicated on the fact that life has no intrinsic meaning. Being born, living, dying are all intrinsically meaningless from the perspective of Buddhadharma.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Pero » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:00 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:
Pero wrote:I'm surprised to be hearing that there is a meaning of life from Buddhists... No teaching I ever heard or read indicated so, but more like the opposite, like Malcolm is saying.


then you havent studied shantidevas bodhicharyavatara. or other mahayana text's that deal with motivation of life.

So could you please provide me with quotes that say there is some meaning of life?


mahayana buddhist could maybe say that there is no meaning in theyre life other than helping others, so they have no meaning for themselves or theyre personal pursuits of life etc but to say that all life has no meaning is dammn nihilistic and i dont think they teach that either in the teachings of buddha.

There is a difference between "a meaning of life" and "a meaning to someone's life".

In regards to meaning of life, the best things I've ever read is this (from Barefoot Zen):
"A student asked a sage:
"What gives life its meaning?"
The sage replied:
"Death, since without it, life loses its meaning."
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:00 pm

yes i agree with that, malcolm

about the earlier posts, basically is a play on words saying if life has meaning or not, others maybe like to express that the meaning of life is to liberate all sentient beings, without drawing the conclusion that life = samsara, i dont agree with that since life=buddhanature as a plus to that.

to others saying that life has no meaning sounds very nihilistic and not a perspective of buddhadharma. but people have different constructions in theyre mind how they understand things so there happens misunderstandings. i am happy that you can explain and express your self clearly so there is no contradictions.
Last edited by KonchokZoepa on Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:01 pm

Pero wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:
Pero wrote:I'm surprised to be hearing that there is a meaning of life from Buddhists... No teaching I ever heard or read indicated so, but more like the opposite, like Malcolm is saying.


then you havent studied shantidevas bodhicharyavatara. or other mahayana text's that deal with motivation of life.

So could you please provide me with quotes that say there is some meaning of life?




no since you are missing the point of what i intended to communicate by refering to the text, read the earlier post i just posted.

in example the refuge and bodhicitta prayer, the bodhicitta part can be understood as motivation for life or the meaning of life.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Pero » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:11 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:in example the refuge and bodhicitta prayer, the bodhicitta part can be understood as motivation for life or the meaning of life.

No, that is a motivation one can have in life but it is not some kind of grand meaning of life.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby heart » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
If you stay in the natural state samsara stops, that is the only cessation the Buddha ever taught.

/magnus


That's simple not true, Magnus, it is especially untrue with respect to Dzogchen.


We will have to agree to disagree then.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby Malcolm » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:50 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
If you stay in the natural state samsara stops, that is the only cessation the Buddha ever taught.

/magnus


That's simple not true, Magnus, it is especially untrue with respect to Dzogchen.


We will have to agree to disagree then.

/magnus


You need to read the Pali suttas.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:55 pm

Pero wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:in example the refuge and bodhicitta prayer, the bodhicitta part can be understood as motivation for life or the meaning of life.

No, that is a motivation one can have in life but it is not some kind of grand meaning of life.


motivation for life to liberate all sentient beings, or the meaning of life is to liberate all sentient beings.

what is the difference between those two?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Dzongsar Kyentse Rinpoche brief comment on Je Tsongkhapa

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:03 pm

and like malcom said in some post that life doesnt have any intrinsic meaning in it.

it is not to say that life does not have any meaning. that is nihilistic.

i would say life has no intrinsic meaning also... but it has a meaning if you give it a meaning.

and to refer again what malcolm said that life=samsara, is not a static truth or a fact. you can view it that way but it does not mean it is. if someone if associates in theyre mind that buddhanature is part of life then how is buddhanature samsaric?

personally i dont like to think that life=samsara.

i would make a distinction between life and samsaric life.

in general life is imbued with all the enlightened qualites and not just the samsaric qualities. for me if someone says life=samsara i see it that you are falling into the other extreme. samsara and nirvana. life is both, maybe the samsara is a tree and nirvana is a seed but its not non existent even in the midst of samsara, so life for me has a meaning.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

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