Buddhism is peaceful?

[Caz]

"Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, [...] favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest."

Pabongkha abandons the Dharma.

Bullshit !

[Caz]

But that reflects badly on them not on whoever's speech they justify their delusions with.

Really? So if I said: "Buddha told me for you to kill that guy over there" and you, due to your delusion (ie believeing I am correct), went over there and killed the guy then I bear no responsibility? I'm not talking about karmic consequences here, just plain old responsibility.

If someone can point out to me where he said to burn down Monasteries and desecrate statues...

[michaelb]

Who is the quote from? You really gotta learn to give sources mr "b"!

I'm not sure if you're being pedantic or obtuse again, Mr K. My quote came from Caz's signature apparently from Pabongkha's "Liberation in the palm of your Hand" [sic]

ps. I would add a moronic emoticon but I'm not 12 years old.

[Caz]

Let me balance my above comments with: while philosophical disputes and wild assertions are to be expected, the destruction of monasteries in the name of Pabongkha, which did happen, is totally unacceptable and absolutely tragic.

Its one thing to destroy a monastery in someone's name...There are many extremists among students of all sects even today, Why I recently heard to the story of one old monk who was left to wallow in the mud for 10 minutes (for reasons better left unsaid) it appears the passers by ( Monks ) forgot their Bodhisattva vows in the name of someone of the other.

But that reflects badly on them not on whoever's speech they justify their delusions with.

Agreed... that is why I am interested in reading these damning documents.

Same here. I am reminded of a quote from Kyabje Zong Rinpoche.

Kyabje Phabongka was also an emanation of Heruka Chakrasamvara, but degeneration of the times and jealousy of ordinary beings have made it difficult to become aware of his tremendous qualities. There are many biographies of Kyabje Phabongka that make his realized qualities very clear.

Im of the opinion many of the negativities attributed to him are fictitious or the works of mistaken cognition. It has not been unknown for people to make later additions to source material for some perverse reason or another.

[conebeckham]

Hey Caz, how can you reconcile your quote form LPYH with the letter MichaelB posted?


Reading through Phabongka's text, I've come across something about giving up Nyingma yidams when one practices Geluk yidams....he uses the example of Khyungpo Naljor, who first practiced Bon, then Nyingma, etc.....I'm still parsing it out.....back of folio 11, if anyone's interested....

[gregkavarnos]

Who is the quote from? You really gotta learn to give sources mr "b"!

I'm not sure if you're being pedantic or obtuse again, Mr K. My quote came from Caz's signature apparently from Pabongkha's "Liberation in the palm of your Hand" [sic]

ps. I would add a moronic emoticon but I'm not 12 years old.

Oh, it is too! Silly me! Didn't notice it! (since I am a moronic 12 year old I have no problem adding emoticons!)

[Konchog1]

Hey Caz, how can you reconcile your quote form LPYH with the letter MichaelB posted?

these days the views of all Sakyas, Kagyus, Nyingmas and so on are erroneous. They are not even Svatantra or Cittamatra, let alone the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka – meditating only the nihilist view like tirthikas and Hashang. If one upholds the nihilist view, the result is nothing other than going to Avichi hell. Since they can't recognize subtle lethargy, even their meditation is defective.

One theory could be that Phabongkha Rinpoche respected the early Sakya, Kagyu, and Nyingma sects but felt that they had degenerated over time while the Gelug alone remained faithful to their founding principles. This theory would explain his habit of quoting Milarepa, Lord Drikungpa and others. It would also explain his statement that Padmasambhava and Tsongkhapa are the same person. In short, he respected the other sects in an abstract sense, but not their modern forms.

[Caz]

Hey Caz, how can you reconcile your quote form LPYH with the letter MichaelB posted?


Reading through Phabongka's text, I've come across something about giving up Nyingma yidams when one practices Geluk yidams....he uses the example of Khyungpo Naljor, who first practiced Bon, then Nyingma, etc.....I'm still parsing it out.....back of folio 11, if anyone's interested....

Fairly easily Cone, There is advice for general audience and advice for specific people. Although this type of letter doesn't come as a great shock to me Lama's have written far worse.

[Caz]

Hey Caz, how can you reconcile your quote form LPYH with the letter MichaelB posted?

these days the views of all Sakyas, Kagyus, Nyingmas and so on are erroneous. They are not even Svatantra or Cittamatra, let alone the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka – meditating only the nihilist view like tirthikas and Hashang. If one upholds the nihilist view, the result is nothing other than going to Avichi hell. Since they can't recognize subtle lethargy, even their meditation is defective.

One theory could be that Phabongkha Rinpoche respected the early Sakya, Kagyu, and Nyingma sects but felt that they had degenerated over time while the Gelug alone remained faithful to their founding principles. This theory would explain his habit of quoting Milarepa, Lord Drikungpa and others. It would also explain his statement that Padmasambhava and Tsongkhapa are the same person. In short, he respected the other sects in an abstract sense, but not their modern forms.

This makes sense.

[JKhedrup]

If it was a private letter it would be odd for his students ton include it in his Sungbum/collected works.

Caz there are many books for learning Tibetan available. The first step is to learn the alphabet. Learntibetan.net has good resources for this. Then you have to decide if you are interested in modern spoken or classical written Tibetan. For texts the latter is what you need. There are too many books to mention but I like Geshe Sopa's Lectures in Tibetan religious culture, it is written with some colloquial mixed in but the second half is all about the Gelug Lam Rim. Also, all the essential terminology is presented in each chapter.

I really encourage you to try to get even a basic reading level, then you can use the Translation tool and Illuminator to piece together sentences yourself. Through practice, year byyear, it will get easier. Investing an hour a day is enough to get to the point of being able to punch things into the dictionary relatively quickly.

Do this while you are still young. And if anyone discourages you, maybe they just don't want you to know something they don't know. Knowledge empowers you to make your own opinions and if they disagree with mine that is fine. I just want you to have the tools to explore those opinions fully. My only agenda is to encourage you to learn

[Caz]

If it was a private letter it would be odd for his students ton include it in his Sungbum/collected works.

Caz there are many books for learning Tibetan available. The first step is to learn the alphabet. Learntibetan.net has good resources for this. Then you have to decide if you are interested in modern spoken or classical written Tibetan. For texts the latter is what you need. There are too many books to mention but I like Geshe Sopa's Lectures in Tibetan religious culture, it is written with some colloquial mixed in but the second half is all about the Gelug Lam Rim. Also, all the essential terminology is presented in each chapter.

I really encourage you to try to get even a basic reading level, then you can use the Translation tool and Illuminator to piece together sentences yourself. Through practice, year byyear, it will get easier. Investing an hour a day is enough to get to the point of being able to punch things into the dictionary relatively quickly.

Do this while you are still young. And if anyone discourages you, maybe they just don't want you to know something they don't know. Knowledge empowers you to make your own opinions and if they disagree with mine that is fine. I just want you to have the tools to explore those opinions fully. My only agenda is to encourage you to learn

Thanks Ven Khedrup I will look into it.

[conebeckham]

Hey Caz, how can you reconcile your quote form LPYH with the letter MichaelB posted?
...

Fairly easily Cone, There is advice for general audience and advice for specific people. Although this type of letter doesn't come as a great shock to me Lama's have written far worse.

So, your position is that your signature quote is for a "general audience," while Michaelb's post is addressed to a specific individual who needed to hear that everyone but Gelukpas were going to fail?

[Caz]

Hey Caz, how can you reconcile your quote form LPYH with the letter MichaelB posted?
...

Fairly easily Cone, There is advice for general audience and advice for specific people. Although this type of letter doesn't come as a great shock to me Lama's have written far worse.

So, your position is that your signature quote is for a "general audience," while Michaelb's post is addressed to a specific individual who needed to hear that everyone but Gelukpas were going to fail?

Pretty much

[conebeckham]

So, is there anything that could possibly be in any of Phabongkha's writings that would lead you to believe that he was sectarian, short of explicit instructions to others to actually destroy monasteries, or worse? Or are these "polemics" as you term them merely specific instructions, skillful means geared towards individuals only?

[Caz]

So, is there anything that could possibly be in any of Phabongkha's writings that would lead you to believe that he was sectarian, short of explicit instructions to others to actually destroy monasteries, or worse? Or are these "polemics" as you term them merely specific instructions, skillful means geared towards individuals only?

Yes nothing short of direct commands to destroy monasteries and worse and even then I would still view him purely

Im inclined to think Je Pabongkha used a variety of skilful means to help others, my lineage Guru's make it very clear he is the same nature as Buddha Heruka and its not uncommon for one to act in contradiction of ordinary appearance if there is a greater benefit that arises from it in the future.

[Jikan]

So, is there anything that could possibly be in any of Phabongkha's writings that would lead you to believe that he was sectarian, short of explicit instructions to others to actually destroy monasteries, or worse? Or are these "polemics" as you term them merely specific instructions, skillful means geared towards individuals only?

David N. Kay, in the book Tibetan Buddhism and Zen in Britain, claims that Pabonka's sectarianism was extraordinarily severe, and came in response to the Rime movement. Specifically, Kay claims Pabonka advocated the destruction of artifacts associated with Guru Rinpoche, and that such relics were destroyed, to cite one instance.

Has anyone plausibly rebutted these claims? By "plausible" I'm asking for a counterargument that is both reasonable and informed by evidence. Not this:

Bullshit !

[conebeckham]

So, is there anything that could possibly be in any of Phabongkha's writings that would lead you to believe that he was sectarian, short of explicit instructions to others to actually destroy monasteries, or worse? Or are these "polemics" as you term them merely specific instructions, skillful means geared towards individuals only?

Yes nothing short of direct commands to destroy monasteries and worse and even then I would still view him purely :.

Well, then..

On reflection, I've decided not to spend any further time weeding through the pages in an attempt to translate his sectarian statements and advice. They are there, I can assure you, but there's ample evidence, even in this thread, that any such statements can be defended by Pahabongkha's supporters--though I have to say that Caz's statement is more extreme than many would care to endorse. Such is the case in Tibetan politics and society--the "religious" affirmation is trotted out to support acts of power, often retrospectively......and so it goes, even into the 21st Century, and even into Western society and culture, and by an organization (NKT) that proposes to be non-(or even anti-) political and "trans-Tibetan." The irony is immense!

There is no limit to the things we will believe.

[michaelb]

indeed, Cone. Any discussion on this issue is pointless, unless we use it as way of reflecting on our own responses to things that challenge us. When people identify themselves strongly with a position so that any contradiction of that position is seen as a personal attack, debate becomes pointless. There is no answer to blind faith. I will bail out here, too.

Before I do, I will post a translation of a couple of Pabongkha's letters to Lui Chuntang, so people at least understand a little why non-Gelugpas draw such exception to Pabongkha. As for the incidents of destroying Guru Rinpoche statues, Nyingma artifacts and forcibly convertiing Nyingma gompas in Chamdo and Kham, there are many accounts that predate any of the current difficult issues that the Gelug tradition has had to go through. Even Phabongkha wouldn't have been stupid enough to actually write it down.

"A CASE TO STUDY
By Tenzin Ragyal

The office of
His Holiness the Dalai Lama
Dharamsala, H.P. INDIA
[...]
With regard to Phabongkha's primary motivation, his outlook towards
other religious traditions and his objectives for starting this
movement, they are all clearly inscribed in a letter that he sent to
the then Chinese military general Lui Chun Tang of the Sichuan
province of China. This letter could be found on page 451, 456 in
the "Cha" section of Phabongkha's volumes on "Miscellaneous Works".
For your convenience I have attached here copies of that letter in
its English translation. If you study them you will be able to
understand the core of the matter without any further explanations.
It is in everybody's interest to take a strong and appropriate stand
and not to remain indifferent on the activities of Phabongkha's
followers and their cult groups and leaders like, e.g. NKT leader
Geshe (self-styled) Kelsang Gyatso in England, Serkong Thritrul in
Taiwan, Gangchen Lama in Italy, Drakgom Tulku in Nepal, Dema Gonsar
in Tibet, Gonsar Rin-poche in Swiss and Dorjee Shugden Society in
India and Nepal etc.

The primary objective in providing this information is not to dig
out what has happened in the past. It is to draw attention to the
fact that even today, in this period of global religious harmony,
some short-sighted and narrow-minded people and groups are actively
adopting the path of fanaticism and religious intolerance. It is a
task and responsibility of all of us to strongly discourage and act
against such forms of religious intolerance and fanaticism.

Tenzin Ragyal
Dharamsala, H.P. INDIA

1) A letter (Phabongkha) sent to the Chinese General, Lu Chu Tang in the Earth Tibet Year

In these days most of the Emperors and kings misperceive the
barbaric religion as the best religion and have turned their backs
against the nectar of the Buddha's teaching and opened the gate wide
towards the lower realm for themselves and as well as their
subjects. At such a time as a great leader and also because of your
strong prayers and merits, you have respected only Manjughosh
Tsongkhapa's teaching lineage, which is the core of the Buddha's
teachings, and put it on the crown of your head and held it firm at
your heart. You have thus spread and propagated the unsullied
teaching in many provinces in-cluding your own and have sown the
seed of the path of liberation. I am grateful to you and the more I
reflect the more my mind is flooded with rejoice and admiration like
the waves of oceans touching the sky. Thank you very much.
Still on this earth many other faiths like Hinduism, Christianity,
Islam, Kongtse, (Confucianism ), Bon (ancient native Tibetan
religion) etc. flourish and each of them claims their own system as
the best. However, except in the teaching of the Buddha, all the
others do not have the path to liberation. They do not even have
the potential to abandon even one type of afflictive emotions.
Even if they practice and uphold their faith in great hardship for a
long time, it will simply open the gate of the lower realm and no
positive result will be achieved at all from them. It is only a
deceptive word showing what is not a path as a path.

Contrarily in the case of the Buddha's teaching, it easily bestows
the "State of Liberation and Omniscience", closes the door of
rebirth in samsara and lower realms and it is possible to eradicate
completely the 84,000 classes of afflictive emotions and their
propensities. In this teaching, without requiring much hardship,
one can travel from a peaceful path to a peaceful fruit. Since this
true teaching is always non-deceptive we should endeavour to make
our life meaningful from a long term perspective and follow only the
teaching of the Buddha. Although this teaching has four tenets, it
is only the Prasangika Madhyamika which realises the unmistaken
emptiness, which is free from the abyss of permanence and nihilism,
and which is the ultimate and exact intention of the Buddha.

Although in the land of Tibet there are many different tenets like
that of Nyingma, Kugyu, Sakya, Gelugpa and so forth it is only the
Gelug School which establishes the unmistaken view of emptiness and
the Prasangika Madhyamika system which is the philosophy of
Nagarjuna. It is not only the philosophical view but also in terms
of meditation it is the perfect meditation devoid of laxity and
torpor. As for its behaviour it is again pure as it is practiced in
accordance with the vinaya teachings. Thus it is only the Gelug
School which knows how to adopt the three: the view, the meditation,
the behaviour and in fact the complete teaching of the Buddha as one
integrated practice in the form of the stages of the path to
enlightenment. Thus this system of teaching of Tsongkhapa is the
heart essence of the Buddha's teaching and is therefore like a
pinnacle of the victorious banner. As such to uphold this teaching
by oneself and to disseminate it to others is the best and far-
reaching Boddhisattva way of practice. As a great leader you have
done the best to spread this teaching in the province of China just
as you have done in the past. And also in the regions of Kham you
have restored and further developed the teachings through various
means. I will be grateful for your continuous noble Boddhisattva
conduct of upholding the responsibility of the Gelug School.


1. Again a letter is sent to Lu Chu Tang in the Earth Rabbit
Year

Honest expression of the General presentation of Inner and Outer
Tenets of the World.

In general there are many religions in this world. Every follower
thinks that his own faith is the best. However, if we honestly
examine, Christianity and Islam are barbarism and therefore are the
worst and there is no other religion worse than these. The non-
Buddhist systems like that of Kapila and Sankhya are slightly better
than the aforementioned faiths but they do not have the path to
liberation. They may undertake great hardships like self-immolation
and jumping upon a trident but there is no path to liberation. It
opens the gate to the lower realm. The so-called Bonpo is also not
at all different from the other non-Buddhist faiths. Far from
achieving liberation it opens the door of the lower realm. Since
Confucianism is also not the teaching of the Buddha it simply gives
temporary happiness but not liberation. As all these systems are
opposite to the Buddha's teachings, leave aside achieving
Buddhahood, they do not at all have the path to liberation. One
cannot show even a single example of one who has achieved liberation
after having practiced these faiths. Without exception most of them
fall into the unfathomable lower realms. It is only Buddhism which
is the path of liberation. Even in Buddhism, the compassionate
Buddha Shakyamuni knew that if the profound and ultimate truth of
emptiness is taught right at the outset, it would not be understood
by the followers. Just as children are gradually taught, starting
from the alphabet, in the same way at first easily understandable
teachings are taught. Therefore he first taught the Vaibhashika
Tenet System which explains grosser meanings of selflessness of
persons. After that he taught the Sautantrika Tenet System which is
more profound than the previous one. Then he taught the Mind Only
School, which is again more profound and which teaches the grosser
selflessness of phenomena. It is this school which Thangsen Lama
propagated in China. After that he taught the Madhyamika Tenet
System which explains the subtle selflessness, the ultimate view.
Here also we have Indian Acharya/Masters Bhavaviveka;
Shantarakshita, who even though they have entered the Madhyamika
philosophy could not fathom the meaning of very subtle emptiness,
the ultimate intention of the Buddha. Thus they are mid-dling
Madhyamikas and they are known as the Svatantrika Madhyamikas.

And we also have Indian Acharyas like Buddhapalita and Chandrakirti
who had unmistakenly fathomed and realised the ultimate intention of
the Buddha, which was trail-blazed by Nagarjuna, and they are called
Prasangika Madhyamikas. Regarding the path of liberation and
Buddhahood, there are two parts: wisdom and method. All those tenet
systems below the Svatantrikas have found the unmistaken path of the
method but have failed to realise the ultimate view which is the wis-
dom aspect, and therefore they have not realised the ultimate
emptiness but just a facsimile. Hence it is only the Prasangika
Madhyamika System which realises the unmistaken subtle emptiness,
the ultimate thought of the Buddha.

There is not even a single individual who has realised the subtle
emp-tiness without entering into the Prasangika System. In the
absence of this realisation it is not possible to attain
enlightenment. Therefore this Prasangika Madhyamika System, the
system of Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti is the best, the supreme and
the peak among the four Buddhist Tenet Systems. In Tibet there are
many systems of Buddhist teachings like Nyingma, Kagyu, Sakya,
Jonang, Bodong and others. All these are Buddhist teachings and
they all have wonderful methods of accumulation of merits,
purification of obstructions, meditation on deities and recitation
of mantras. Through these practices one can achieve liberation.
Therefore these are a hundred thousand million times better than
Christianity, Islam and other non-Buddhist teachings. However,
there is no system like that of Tsongkhapa's, which is complete,
unmistaken, profound and fast.

Although each of the Tibetan philosophical schools feel and assert
that their own philosophy is that of Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti and
thus the philosophy of Prasangika, but, because of its very subtlety
the followers could not realise the main intention of their
preceding learned scholar practitioners and have thus erred. Most
of them have become like the philosophy of Hvashang Mahayana. By
becoming so one will fall into nihilism and will become the cause
for hell. Therefore, in Tibet, except Tsongkhapa's philosophy, all
others are mistaken. As such I can affirm that at present on this
earth and be-neath the sky it is only the refined gold, like
Manjushri Tsongkhapa's system which is alone totally faultless in
every aspect, be it the philosophical view, the meditation or the
conduct. It is complete, profound and extensive and if one has the
knowledge and the ability to practice this teaching properly then
one will be able to attain Buddha-hood within twelve human years or
even in three years and three fortnights. This can be sustained
through thousands of reasonings and references. The core of the
teaching is the path to enlightenment alone. While this wonderful
philosophy is existent many unfortunately adhere strongly to
inferior teachings. Many such people are there in Tibet as well,
which is a clear indication of lack of merit. The establishment of
Tsongkhapa's teaching, the core of the Buddha's teachings, in your
country is such a rare priviledge that even tens and hundreds of
millions of merits accumulated by Lord Indra and Brahma cannot equal
even a portion of this merit. This is really fortunate.


Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

[Konchog1]

This new translation is missing the comment about non-Gelug sects going to hell. Hmm.

[michaelb]

I think they're different letters. I would have to look at the originals... but I can't be arsed.

One more quote from one of pabongkha's letters, included in Dhongthog Rinpoche's book, "A timely tongue of flame."

"Presently, aside from Manjughosha Tsongkhapa's view; the views of all Sa.skya.pa , bKa'.rgyud and rNying.mas are erroneous. What need to mention the consequentialist madhyamaka view, without even an autonomist [madhyamaka] or mind only view, [they] meditate a strictly annihilationist view similar with non-Buddhist extremists [mu.stegs.pa ] and Hashang Mahaayaana. If an annihilationist view is held, a result apart from going to Avici hell is not warranted. Also by not recognizing subtle sinking, meditation will be faulty...because liberation and the non-erroneous path of omniscience will not exist for them; for such as they, although saadhana is practiced for a thousand years, realization will not arise; similar with wishing for butter having churned water, the essence does not exist". [T.G Dhongthog Rinpoche "Dus.kyi.me.lce, Timely Tongue of Flame", pp. 117-118, Delhi: 1979]