Buddhism is peaceful?

[Tom]

Okay, I guess those are the documents then. I sort of expected more.  I still am a little hesitant to jump from  (1) wild claims about the superiority of one's own sect and the faults of others, to (2) the persecution of another sect and the physical destruction of monasteries, etc.  Even, Tsongkhapa says things like, "those who think that with emptiness there is no functioning and functioning no emptiness will fall into a terrifying abyss."

However,  I am no "Pabongkha supporter"… I have read in quite a few biographies accounts of monasteries being sacked in Pabongkha's name. At the moment I am translating documents about the history and lineage for one of my Lamas (Kagyu) and there are huge gaps because the monastery was destroyed by Gelugpas, and what has been lost is just irreplaceable. I have visited the rebuilt monastery in Tibet and seen the ruins (also due to the events of 1959) - it is tragic and shameful.

I personally find it hard to be convinced that it was not Pabongkha, but it was his secretary that gave such orders, or that it was out-of-control fanatics that did the damage - but that is just pure conjecture on my part so please ignore, Caz et. al. I understand that Pabongkha is a lineage lama to you guys and you may well be Vajrayana practitioners and committed to a certain view and so I get it and respect that.

[Tom]

I feel a bit bad as my Tsongkhapa quote was a bit of a cheap shot and I stretched the meaning of the Tibetan however anyone interested in Tsongkhapa going after the other sects of his day should read his: དགེ་སྦྱོར་གྱི་གནད་ལ་དྲི་བ་སྙན་བསྐུལ་བ་ལྷག་བསམ་རབ་དཀར།

[JKhedrup]

I wasgoing to say in a month or two when I have another laptop and software reinstalled I would take another crack at it. But honestly I have other challenges at the moment and sectarianism is something I find very upsetting. So once things are up and running I will start on the Vinaya texts rather than Pabongkhapa, people's minds are made up anyway. Faith scares me, though, when it involves a refusal to be objective because of affiliation. It really scares me.

Everytime this can of worms is opened it makes me feel a little depressed actually. So many sad issues are connected to this whole mess, and people are so invested they put their discernment aside.

[Tom]

I wasgoing to say in a month or two when I have another laptop and software reinstalled I would take another crack at it. But honestly I have other challenges at the moment and sectarianism is something I find very upsetting. So once things are up and running I will start on the Vinaya texts rather than Pabongkhapa, people's minds are made up anyway. Faith scares me, though, when it involves a refusal to be objective because of affiliation. It really scares me.

Everytime this can of worms is opened it makes me feel a little depressed actually. So many sad issues are connected to this whole mess, and people are so invested they put their discernment aside.

To be honest I am not sure it is worth it Venerable. I have had a very very quick flick through the volume and nothing stood out as distinct from what we have already seen and I have spent a little time with a few interesting letters (btw it is not uncommon to have private letters in a sung bum. I have even seen letters received by a Lama included in his sung bum). As I began going through the text I started thinking, say we find the smoking gun - then what?

Put another way, do you have advice for those who have the 5th Dalai Lama in their prayers? Sectarianism scares me but not faith.

So, although I too am saddened by sectarianism, and have absolutely no time for certain issues still current, I am mindful to appreciate that faith in lineage Lama's such as H.H. the Fifth Dalai Lama or even Pabongkha, does not necessarily imply the practitioner is sectarian and certainly not that they are is in some way dull and unable to discriminate right from wrong. To loose sight of this I think is its own form of sectarianism.

Now I will shut up and get off the soap box!

[JKhedrup]

Point taken, but I am not looking down on the intelligence of people, rather I mentioned them putting their discernment aside. Many of the people I have encountered who make this choice are more intelligent than I am, this is why I find it disappointing. It is not an attitude unique to our tradition either-I have seen this attitude amongst Kagyus and Nyingmas and also in Thailand and Taiwan.

As for the 5th, just be open to researching and knowing the history. I am not a huge fan of rnam grol lag bcangs but Phabongkhapa's texts connected with Chittamani Tara are profoundly beautiful an some of my favourites. But I don't wilfully close my eyes.

Perhaps having lived in monasteries in India during this conflict and seeing friends being impacted, and being impacted directly myself, all the misinformation perpetuated connected with this, as well as the real toll on y teachers and on HH, has made me more emotionally involved than should be the case.

However, I want people to be empowered with a little Tibetan so they can have informed opinions. That is really my only agenda in this thread. And if I can learn Tibetan, anyone can.

[Caz]

So, is there anything that could possibly be in any of Phabongkha's writings that would lead you to believe that he was sectarian, short of explicit instructions to others to actually destroy monasteries, or worse? Or are these "polemics" as you term them merely specific instructions, skillful means geared towards individuals only?

Yes nothing short of direct commands to destroy monasteries and worse and even then I would still view him purely :.

Well, then..

On reflection, I've decided not to spend any further time weeding through the pages in an attempt to translate his sectarian statements and advice. They are there, I can assure you, but there's ample evidence, even in this thread, that any such statements can be defended by Pahabongkha's supporters--though I have to say that Caz's statement is more extreme than many would care to endorse. Such is the case in Tibetan politics and society--the "religious" affirmation is trotted out to support acts of power, often retrospectively......and so it goes, even into the 21st Century, and even into Western society and culture, and by an organization (NKT) that proposes to be non-(or even anti-) political and "trans-Tibetan." The irony is immense!

There is no limit to the things we will believe.

I sincerely doubt Pabongkha would have ordered such things anyway, as I said earlier on there are always extremists amongst students I would attribute such negativity to them rather then someone who has very clear experiences of the stages of the path.
I Dont and never have supported closing monastery's or desecrating statues that practice different traditions that would be foolish, I have always been taught other Dharma presentations are very precious and to be respected. But non the less I could not view Je Pabongkha impurely.

Kyabje Zong Rinpoche also explained the importance for Gelugpas of developing faith in the Gelugpa lineage passed down through Je Phabongkhapa and his principal disciple Trijang Rinpoche:
Kyabje Phabongka passed all of his lineages to Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang. He often said this in discourses. The purpose of this detailed exposition is to affirm the power of the lineage. If we lose faith in the lineage, we are lost. We should remember the biographies of past and present teachers. We should never develop negative thoughts towards our root and lineage gurus. If we do not keep the commitments after having received teachings, this is a great downfall.

[Namgyal]

So, is there anything that could possibly be in any of Phabongkha's writings that would lead you to believe that he was sectarian, short of explicit instructions to others to actually destroy monasteries, or worse? Or are these "polemics" as you term them merely specific instructions, skillful means geared towards individuals only?

David N. Kay, in the book Tibetan Buddhism and Zen in Britain, claims that Pabonka's sectarianism was extraordinarily severe, and came in response to the Rime movement. Specifically, Kay claims Pabonka advocated the destruction of artifacts associated with Guru Rinpoche, and that such relics were destroyed, to cite one instance.

In 'Civilized Shamans: Buddhism in Tibetan Societies' Professor Samuel argues that Tibetan Buddhism is a spectrum between clerical and shamanic traditions, both essential to Buddhism but locked in a conflict that goes back to India. He also highlights the centralising pressure which seems to be inevitable in Buddhist societies, but which could never be completed in Tibet on account of the terrain. The dream of a unified Tibetan Buddhism was always hopeless because Lhasa could never exert complete political control over its vast territory. Pabongka Rinpoche is just another conservative monk-pandit having a go at some yogins; an ancient Buddhist tradition, and he is also not the first scholar to dream of a Royal Buddhism. I fail to see why he has such a bad press? So what if a group of ruffians allegedly acting in his name carried out vandalism? So what if he wrote a few extreme tracts for political purposes? There is no verifiable letter from Pabongka Rinpoche saying 'Kill those yogins and smash their icons!' so I am not convinced. My viewpoint is that Pabongka Rinpoche is simply one of the lineage teachers of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who can do no wrong. Lama Zopa Rinpoche's opinion also carries some weight with me.

[Tom]

Point taken, but I am not looking down on the intelligence of people, rather I mentioned them putting their discernment aside. Many of the people I have encountered who make this choice are more intelligent than I am, this is why I find it disappointing. It is not an attitude unique to our tradition either-I have seen this attitude amongst Kagyus and Nyingmas and also in Thailand and Taiwan.

As for the 5th, just be open to researching and knowing the history. I am not a huge fan of rnam grol lag bcangs but Phabongkhapa's texts connected with Chittamani Tara are profoundly beautiful an some of my favourites. But I don't wilfully close my eyes.

Perhaps having lived in monasteries in India during this conflict and seeing friends being impacted, and being impacted directly myself, all the misinformation perpetuated connected with this, as well as the real toll on y teachers and on HH, has made me more emotionally involved than should be the case.

However, I want people to be empowered with a little Tibetan so they can have informed opinions. That is really my only agenda in this thread. And if I can learn Tibetan, anyone can.

Yes, believe me I agree with many of your points in this thread.

Most of all I wish those who have faith in Pabongkha would appreciate the sensitive nature of the topic, especially for Kagyu pas and Nyingma pas whose monasteries were destroyed in Pabongkha's name, and if they need to broach this topic at all they do it not with defensiveness and accusations but with compassion and sensitivity.