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JKhedrup wrote:I wasgoing to say in a month or two when I have another laptop and software reinstalled I would take another crack at it. But honestly I have other challenges at the moment and sectarianism is something I find very upsetting. So once things are up and running I will start on the Vinaya texts rather than Pabongkhapa, people's minds are made up anyway. Faith scares me, though, when it involves a refusal to be objective because of affiliation. It really scares me.
Everytime this can of worms is opened it makes me feel a little depressed actually. So many sad issues are connected to this whole mess, and people are so invested they put their discernment aside.
conebeckham wrote:Caz wrote:conebeckham wrote:So, is there anything that could possibly be in any of Phabongkha's writings that would lead you to believe that he was sectarian, short of explicit instructions to others to actually destroy monasteries, or worse? Or are these "polemics" as you term them merely specific instructions, skillful means geared towards individuals only?
Yes nothing short of direct commands to destroy monasteries and worse and even then I would still view him purely :.
On reflection, I've decided not to spend any further time weeding through the pages in an attempt to translate his sectarian statements and advice. They are there, I can assure you, but there's ample evidence, even in this thread, that any such statements can be defended by Pahabongkha's supporters--though I have to say that Caz's statement is more extreme than many would care to endorse. Such is the case in Tibetan politics and society--the "religious" affirmation is trotted out to support acts of power, often retrospectively......and so it goes, even into the 21st Century, and even into Western society and culture, and by an organization (NKT) that proposes to be non-(or even anti-) political and "trans-Tibetan." The irony is immense!
There is no limit to the things we will believe.
Jikan wrote:conebeckham wrote:So, is there anything that could possibly be in any of Phabongkha's writings that would lead you to believe that he was sectarian, short of explicit instructions to others to actually destroy monasteries, or worse? Or are these "polemics" as you term them merely specific instructions, skillful means geared towards individuals only?
David N. Kay, in the book Tibetan Buddhism and Zen in Britain, claims that Pabonka's sectarianism was extraordinarily severe, and came in response to the Rime movement. Specifically, Kay claims Pabonka advocated the destruction of artifacts associated with Guru Rinpoche, and that such relics were destroyed, to cite one instance.
JKhedrup wrote:Point taken, but I am not looking down on the intelligence of people, rather I mentioned them putting their discernment aside. Many of the people I have encountered who make this choice are more intelligent than I am, this is why I find it disappointing. It is not an attitude unique to our tradition either-I have seen this attitude amongst Kagyus and Nyingmas and also in Thailand and Taiwan.
As for the 5th, just be open to researching and knowing the history. I am not a huge fan of rnam grol lag bcangs but Phabongkhapa's texts connected with Chittamani Tara are profoundly beautiful an some of my favourites. But I don't wilfully close my eyes.
Perhaps having lived in monasteries in India during this conflict and seeing friends being impacted, and being impacted directly myself, all the misinformation perpetuated connected with this, as well as the real toll on y teachers and on HH, has made me more emotionally involved than should be the case.
However, I want people to be empowered with a little Tibetan so they can have informed opinions. That is really my only agenda in this thread. And if I can learn Tibetan, anyone can.
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