Sakya POV on the origin of the Cakrasamvara Tantras

[Malcolm]

Ok how can someone learn about him?

Namdrol, do you have any good Internet or book sources?

There is a book by templeman that has his biography.

[conebeckham]

Taranatha wrote a biography of him...http://www.alibris.com/search/books/isbn/9788185102702

Taranatha was, in fact, said to be his incarnation.

[conebeckham]

Namdrol-

You said Ghantapada's was the first known Completion Stage commentary for Chakrasamvara....but didn't Luipa write on the completion stage as well? My understanding was that Luipa was the first or earliest of the Chakrasamvara Siddhas. Some say he "discovered" the tantra itself?

[Malcolm]

Namdrol-

You said Ghantapada's was the first known Completion Stage commentary for Chakrasamvara....but didn't Luipa write on the completion stage as well? My understanding was that Luipa was the first or earliest of the Chakrasamvara Siddhas. Some say he "discovered" the tantra itself?

Yes, but that does not mean he wrote down completion stage instructions. AFAIK, he just composed a sadhana.

[conebeckham]

Luipa does have the Four Great Yogas, which are completion stage practices, I think.

Tsong Khapa commented on them, I believe, as well.

I don't know if they're an existing lineage though. Seems the Gelukpas practice Ghantapa's Completion stage, mainly....I don't know about the Sakya practice, though I think it's based on Luipa's?
Kamtsang Kagyu practice is based on Luipa and Krishnacharya, though it's a unique transmission stemming from Marpa and subsequent masters.

[Malcolm]

Luipa does have the Four Great Yogas, which are completion stage practices, I think.

Tsong Khapa commented on them, I believe, as well.

I don't know if they're an existing lineage though. Seems the Gelukpas practice Ghantapa's Completion stage, mainly....I don't know about the Sakya practice, though I think it's based on Luipa's?
Kamtsang Kagyu practice is based on Luipa and Krishnacharya, though it's a unique transmission stemming from Marpa and subsequent masters.

The Sakya school has three separate transmissions of Cakrasamvara, and three separate traditions of Vajrayogini.

All of the Cakrasamvara transmissions come through Naropa. They are Luyipa, Ghantapada and Krishnacarya. Of these, the Luyipa and Krishnacarya traditions are more widely practiced. And of these two, the Krishnacarya tradition is the most popular. It also has the largest number of commentaries.

The Ghantapada tradition is more emphasized in the Gelug school, this tradition nevertheless comes from Sakya.

As far as the completion stage practice of Luyipa goes, Luyipa did not write a completion stage text. There are only five or six texts attributed to him in the Tengyur. This does not mean he did not have completion stage instructions -- it just means he did write them down. Luyipa's disciple was Darikpa, and Darikpa's disciple was Ghantapada.

You are correct, Tsongkhapa did write a commentary on completion stage of this system.

[Enochian]

The yogas underpinning the mahāmudra movement and tantras and their terminology as we know have non-Buddhsit origins and are heavily informed by Ayurveda, etc.

N

Why do you say this?

Do you have something more than Alexis Sanderson's work?

[Malcolm]

The yogas underpinning the mahāmudra movement and tantras and their terminology as we know have non-Buddhsit origins and are heavily informed by Ayurveda, etc.

N

Why do you say this?

Do you have something more than Alexis Sanderson's work?

Oh, the sadanga yoga in Guhyasamaja, five vāyus in Ayurveda etc., all of these things are found in the pre-buddhist Upanishads.

N

[dzoki]

That is an interesting question. We actually have complaints by Nyingma authors from the tenth century expressing concern about new-fangeled, new-age clap trap yoga practices using cakras, and so on, borrowed from Hindus and being imported from India. It suggests that tummo was adapted from the mother tantras when they came to Tibet.

What about Guhyagarbhatantra? No tummo there? I mean in particular in dpal gsang ba'i snying po de kho na nyid rnam par nges pa'i rgyud chen po
also I would expect he ru ka gal po che'i rgyud to have some of this stuff, since it said to be just like mother tantras of sarma in many respects.

Also Vairochana's thrulkhor has a practice with chakras and channels, unfortunately at present we have only two of the three texts regarding this topic from Vairo Nyengyu. The third one was supposed to deal with the tummo itself. The first one deals with yantras and tsa lungs (which have practices with channels and chakras), second is dealing with removing obstacles and gaining benefits.

Do Sakya Vajrakilaya and Vishuddha have dzogrim with characteristics? In Dudjom Tersar there is a tummo associated with Kilaya, so it would be interesting to know whether the same goes for kama lineage.

[Malcolm]

That is an interesting question. We actually have complaints by Nyingma authors from the tenth century expressing concern about new-fangeled, new-age clap trap yoga practices using cakras, and so on, borrowed from Hindus and being imported from India. It suggests that tummo was adapted from the mother tantras when they came to Tibet.

What about Guhyagarbhatantra? No tummo there? I mean in particular in dpal gsang ba'i snying po de kho na nyid rnam par nges pa'i rgyud chen po

Nope.

also I would expect he ru ka gal po che'i rgyud to have some of this stuff, since it said to be just like mother tantras of sarma in many respects.

Supposedly, according to Dudjom, this is the base of Lamdre.

Also Vairochana's thrulkhor has a practice with chakras and channels, unfortunately at present we have only two of the three texts regarding this topic from Vairo Nyengyu. The third one was supposed to deal with the tummo itself. The first one deals with yantras and tsa lungs (which have practices with channels and chakras), second is dealing with removing obstacles and gaining benefits.

Very hard to date these texts.


[/quote]
Do Sakya Vajrakilaya and Vishuddha have dzogrim with characteristics? [/quote]

Not that I know of.

[Enochian]

The yogas underpinning the mahāmudra movement and tantras and their terminology as we know have non-Buddhsit origins and are heavily informed by Ayurveda, etc.

N

Why do you say this?

Do you have something more than Alexis Sanderson's work?

Oh, the sadanga yoga in Guhyasamaja, five vāyus in Ayurveda etc., all of these things are found in the pre-buddhist Upanishads.

N

I thought you were going to hit me with some common origin of both the Buddhist and Hindu chakra systems!

[adinatha]

Why do you say this?

Do you have something more than Alexis Sanderson's work?

Oh, the sadanga yoga in Guhyasamaja, five vāyus in Ayurveda etc., all of these things are found in the pre-buddhist Upanishads.

N

I thought you were going to hit me with some common origin of both the Buddhist and Hindu chakra systems!

Bonpo. Just kidding, maybe, not really, I don't know.

[dzoki]

That is an interesting question. We actually have complaints by Nyingma authors from the tenth century expressing concern about new-fangeled, new-age clap trap yoga practices using cakras, and so on, borrowed from Hindus and being imported from India. It suggests that tummo was adapted from the mother tantras when they came to Tibet.

What about Guhyagarbhatantra? No tummo there? I mean in particular in dpal gsang ba'i snying po de kho na nyid rnam par nges pa'i rgyud chen po

Nope.

also I would expect he ru ka gal po che'i rgyud to have some of this stuff, since it said to be just like mother tantras of sarma in many respects.

Supposedly, according to Dudjom, this is the base of Lamdre.

Also Vairochana's thrulkhor has a practice with chakras and channels, unfortunately at present we have only two of the three texts regarding this topic from Vairo Nyengyu. The third one was supposed to deal with the tummo itself. The first one deals with yantras and tsa lungs (which have practices with channels and chakras), second is dealing with removing obstacles and gaining benefits.

Very hard to date these texts.

Do Sakya Vajrakilaya and Vishuddha have dzogrim with characteristics? [/quote]

Not that I know of.[/quote]

Definitely dpal zla gsang thig le rtsa ba'i rgyud has a short passage on tummo, also sgyu 'phrul rgya mtsho rgyud has the following passage, according to Gyurme Dorje's translation:

There are the upper and lower doors (of the body)
Which, transformed through particular vital energies.
Bring forth pristine cognition.
These are the very skillful means
Which both eject and draw in (vital energy):
The "cow of space" is milked
By the motion of the vital energy of fire
In the three "life-giving trees" with their three centres.
And this is known as the aspect (of skillful means)
Associated with the upper (door).
By developing the fivefold sequence of "enlightened mind"
Which, in three steps. Is drawn in,
The nature in which the sixteen levels are obtained
Becomes co-emergent, so that the path of release
Is effected through control (of the seminal fluid).

So it is quite clear that also tantras of mahayoga have teachings on tummo. By the way, who were the guys who complained about the new tantras?

[Malcolm]

Definitely dpal zla gsang thig le rtsa ba'i rgyud has a short passage on tummo, also sgyu 'phrul rgya mtsho rgyud has the following passage, according to Gyurme Dorje's translation:

It is hard to date these texts too. So we really cannot say anything conclusive with regard to gtum mo based on these texts. Further, we know that karmamudra practices predate gtum mo. So, pranāyama combined with karmamudra practices are present from a very early period. The point is, however, we don't know when gtummo practices entered Tibet.

Quite early, if we accept most of the Kilaya tantras, etc as authentic. If not, then quite late.

Davidson, I believe as reference to this fact.

N

[Malcolm]

Update:

Have been working on an interesting text by Sakya Pandita on the history of Cakrasamvara.

According to this history, the first human being to receive Cakrasamvara was Saraha I, the teacher of the tantric siddha, Nāgārjuna. In terms of when Saraha lived, he does not really say, apart from asserting that Saraha is present at Shri Parvata (Sri Sailam in modern India) in Andhra Pradesha as a sambhogakāya.

Luhipa was the disciple of Saraha II aka Shavaripa. Sapan definitely situates him during the reign of the famed Buddhist king of Bengal, Shri Dharmapala, whose reign extended circa 775 to 810 CE.

Luihipa was a scribe in the court of Dharmapāla until he met Savaripa. We do not know when Luhipa was active during this 35 year period, but since his retreat was 9-12 years, and since legend holds that Dharmapāla became a disciple of Luhipa, we assume a later date for Luhipa and put his encounter with Dharmapāla around 810. Supposedly Dharmapāla left his kingdom and took a job as a pounder of rice in what is now known as Orrisa becoming known as the siddha Demgipa.

From Demgipa on, a significant feature of Cakrasamvara practice is the requirement that high cast practitioners take low caste occupations under low cast woman.

In any event, we have a fairly firm range to date the Cakrasamvara tantra from -- given this we can presume that the Cakrasamvara must date to the early 8th century CE. Since it mentions the Guhyasamaja and a number of other tantras, we can date those, as well as Saraha I, the first Siddha, to the late 7th century CE.

Also Situ Panchen asserts that Lohipa revealed the Yoginisamcarya tantra, which details the process of the sadhana practice.

This has a happy consequence for the Mahamudra text in the Vima Nyinthig which mentions Saraha by name.

[Enochian]

present at Shri Parvata (Sri Sailam in modern India) in Andhra Pradesha as a sambhogakāya.

You mean right now?

I've been there!

[Malcolm]

present at Shri Parvata (Sri Sailam in modern India) in Andhra Pradesha as a sambhogakāya.

You mean right now?

I've been there!

Indeed, right now and for as long as the sun and moon exist.

N

[conebeckham]

Thanks, Namdrol...any chance your work will be published? Shri Chakrasamvara is a primary interest of mine.

[Malcolm]

Thanks, Namdrol...any chance your work will be published? Shri Chakrasamvara is a primary interest of mine.

Only here or on my blog.

[conebeckham]

I'll keep my eyes open, then....! thanks.