The source of the Vajra/Dorje

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The source of the Vajra/Dorje

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:24 am

Hello dear members,

Thought to place this question here but this could also be somewhere else here aboard.

We know the Dorje / Vajra in Vajrayana / Dorje Thekpa.

Can anybody tell me why it came that Dorje Thekpa has this symbol and when did this happened (year)?


Best wishes for our practice

Kalden Yungdrung
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Re: The source of the Vajra/Dorje

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:30 pm

Hello dear members, :)

It is really amazing that in Dorje Thekpa one uses day after day this symbol of indestructibility, power and nobody knows about the how and why. :o

Even the Sarma Tradition is named on base of this symbol namely Dorje Thekpa or Vajrayana.
i guess that nobody did found this dorje somewhere by accident.

Very strange would i say.........

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kalden Yungdrung
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Re: The source of the Vajra/Dorje

Postby kirtu » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:26 pm

I don't remember my teachers talking about the origin of the vajra in Vajrayana but will see if my notes address this.

However the outer meaning of the vajra is a representation of method.

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Re: The source of the Vajra/Dorje

Postby Heruka » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:05 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:Hello dear members, :)

It is really amazing that in Dorje Thekpa one uses day after day this symbol of indestructibility, power and nobody knows about the how and why. :o

Even the Sarma Tradition is named on base of this symbol namely Dorje Thekpa or Vajrayana.
i guess that nobody did found this dorje somewhere by accident.

Very strange would i say.........

Best wishes
kalden Yungdrung
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Re: The source of the Vajra/Dorje

Postby Gyalpo » Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:50 am

If I remember correctly, it was weapon, thunderbolt of Indra... But it is hard to say, if hindus copied buddhists, or vice versa.
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Re: The source of the Vajra/Dorje

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:33 am

Hello,

Did started some investigations about the topic.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Indra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra
http://www.sawf.org/bin/tips.dll/gettip ... ory&arch=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Aakra_(Buddhism)

In Buddhism:
The Trāyastriṃśa heaven which Śakra rules is located on the top of Mount Sumeru (cf. Meru), imagined to be the polar center of the physical world, around which the Sun and Moon revolve. Trāyastriṃśa is the highest of the heavens which is in direct contact with the Earth. Like the other deities of this heaven, Śakra is long-lived but mortal. When one Śakra dies, his place is taken by another deity who becomes the new Śakra. Buddhist stories about Śakra (past or present) are found in the Jātaka stories and in several sutras, particularly in the Saṃyutta Nikāya.

In Hidhuism:
Indra is the most important deity in Vedic Hinduism, and is celebrated in more than 250 hymns within the Rg Veda alone. This total is surpassed only by Agni, the personification of fire. The Vedas are primarily henotheistic, with one god maintaining primacy over the other deities. In the beginning, Varuna, the personification of the supreme moral order in the universe, held position atop the Vedic pantheon. However, as the Vedic stories progress, it is Indra who rises to this supreme position, and Varuna is usurped in battle by Indra's brute physical strength and unsurpassed autonomy (svaraj). Indra thus supplanted Varuna as the supreme god. His victory over Varuna consolidated his status as a slayer of enemy deities and therefore the divine protector of the Aryan way of life, particularly the warrior class, for which Indra is the patron. Warriors no doubt held great esteem within Aryan society; therefore, Indra's rise to the top of the Vedic pantheon may mark the veneration of the militaristic principle over and above that of the life of the Brahmins. Unlike Varuna who is king by divine right, Indra is a king by conquest; therefore the Vedic myth seems to imply tensions that may have existed between the ruling Branminical caste and the Kshatryas, the warrior caste which they outranked.

The vedas are more then 3500 years old.So i guess the thunderbold of Indra stems from the Hindhu God of the Vedas or Rig Vedas and that Shakra is part as well from the Hindhu culture as well the Buddhist culture.

So in my opinion stems the Vajra from the vedic or Indo-Aryan warrior God Indra and is his weapon, and is taken over by the Dorje Thekpa as a symbol of power over other traditions like maybe the Bon? Bon has namely also a symbol of indestructability the Yungdrung. The Sarma needed also such a powerfull symbol so it became the Dorje meant as a weapon to conquer the Bon and Bonpos??

So from one side Indra is Shakra and inside the Buddhism wellknown and from the other side it is the Hindhu God who stems from the Vedas (Indo-Aryan) and is more then 3500 years old, so older then Buddhism.

So i guess the early Sarma tradition made a little mistake or were confused about Indra and Shakra and did not understood the complexity of the 2 different names.......

So who was the one who did introduce the Vajra in Tibet and why and when (date)?

Best wishes
Kalden Yungdrung

Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The source of the Vajra/Dorje

Postby Heruka » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:56 am

no, not one of those explanations.

sorry, but it is simpler than that, and something your teacher can explain.
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Re: The source of the Vajra/Dorje

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:08 am

Heruka wrote:no, not one of those explanations.

sorry, but it is simpler than that, and something your teacher can explain.



Hello Heruka, :)

Well untill now, after 25 years, was nobody capable enough to give an explanation to me.
So here a try in the logical historical direction.
Well me too does appreciate and like simplicity, no doubt about it.

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Re: The source of the Vajra/Dorje

Postby Heruka » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:00 am

respectfully, not my show to explain.


:anjali:
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Re: The source of the Vajra/Dorje

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:56 am

Heruka wrote:respectfully, not my show to explain.


:anjali:


Hello Heruka, :)

Thanks for your honest statement, its ok, i can understand that.


Best wishes for your practice
Kalden Yungdrung
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Re: The source of the Vajra/Dorje

Postby dechenpa » Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:26 pm

The vajra indeed precedes Buddhism and originates in the vedas. The usage of the vajra in vajrayana Buddhism is an appropriation of the Hindu vajra where there vajra is given a new significance, specifically, it is used to different Buddhist deities from Hindu deities, e.g. vajra-dakinis vs dakinis. It is a symbol that has been appropriated from the native culture. Had Buddhism originated in Greece, the symbol might well have been Zeus' thunderbolt, not Indra's.

Vajrayana Buddhism is of course rife with Hindu symbolism and imagery: vedic, shaivite, vaishnavite. The vajra is the most obvious case in point but there are endless others: tridents, kapalas, bone ornaments. In each case, Buddhism gives a different interpretation of the symbol to the Hindu interpretation. Deity yoga and completion stage methods are all found in Hinduism, but the Vajrayana practises have a different meaning and result.

Perhaps you are worried (as many are) that the obvious non-Buddhist antecedents of vajrayana symbolism is evidence that the vajrayana is a kind of mutation of Hinduism. This comes from focussing on the symbol itself and not considering its meaning. It is the interpretation one puts on them that differentiates Buddhism from other systems.

In the rgyud sde rnam bzhag, Lopon Sonam Tsemo stresses that the essential differentiating points of Buddhist vajrayana are that they are preceded by refuge and bodhichitta. This guarantees their difference from the equivalent non-Buddhist practises.
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Re: The source of the Vajra/Dorje

Postby Blue Garuda » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:03 pm

Robert Beer has an excellent description of the forms and meaning fo the Vajra and other implements here:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-380 ... &q&f=false

See page 87 onwards. :)
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