Is guru yoga enough?

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Re: Is guru yoga enough?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 02, 2012 10:24 am

I agree. I had the good karma to receive the Karma Pakshi empowerment from Beru Khyentse and had received the practice (utilising only the figure of Karma Pakshi, not a problem since Karma Pakshi puts you directly into contact with the retinue) from my Greek lama. I cannot begin to describe how valuable the practice is, especially if one is in the position where they have to teach Dharma.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Is guru yoga enough?

Postby heart » Wed May 02, 2012 11:42 am

Kelwin wrote:
heart wrote:Any method have to be combined with wisdom. If a method is sufficient or not depends on having received it together with instructions that point directly at the natural state.
That's a very good point. However, could the lineage blessing not guide you there? Or maybe receive those instructions once or twice, not really getting it fully yet, and then practice guru yoga until it all manifests?


I think the definition of blessing is wisdom. But of course if you received instructions, even if you don't get it completely, from a qualified teacher it might be enough.

Kelwin wrote:
heart wrote:A trend in the Kagyu tradition is to give pointing-out after Ngondro or even after Yidam. In that case I have my doubts about Guru Yoga as a single sufficient method, if it was the Guru Yoga in the Ngondro that was intended in your question.

/magnus
Nope, I intended sadhanas like Milarepa, Karma Pakshi, Mikyo Dorje, as mentioned in the original question. But do I understand correctly that you would consider the Guru Yoga in the ngondro as a single sufficient method if one actually did get proper pointing out instructions?


Since the main focus in Ngondro is Guru Yoga, I think Ngondro could be a complete path. For example Togden Ugyen Tendzin ChNN's uncle, practiced a lot of Longchen Nyingthig Ngondro and attained a rainbow body. In his commentary on the Longchen Nyingthig Guru Yoga Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche definitely say that even only the Guru Yoga is a complete path.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Is guru yoga enough?

Postby Andrew108 » Wed May 02, 2012 1:04 pm

I don't think Guru Yoga is enough to be honest. It's often a contrivance. There is no practice that's enough. Genuine devotion comes out of relating to the 'unreality' of your immediate situation in respect to what the teacher has pointed out. Genuine dharma in the sense of being inspired by devotion isn't really practiced - it's this accepting of the consequences of 'unreality' that's the point - getting continuously used to 'unreality'. (This is not a perfect way to say this - but there really aren't right words.)
You the watcher creating the visualization of the guru or so on as 'idealized' other. Not sure practicing like this leads anywhere except frustration.
If like deepbluehum said the Guru Yoga includes shamatha and vipashna (as all creation/completion practices should) then there will be a move in the right direction - along the path. But be careful if you think any practice is enough. You might think this because a master has said it but do you really know this - have you tasted why this might be true?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Is guru yoga enough?

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed May 02, 2012 1:16 pm

Andrew108 wrote:You the watcher creating the visualization of the guru or so on as 'idealized' other. Not sure practicing like this leads anywhere except frustration.
This is not a shortcoming of guru yoga, but a misunderstanding of the "how" and the "what" of the practice. If you practice guru yoga like this then you are practicing it wrongly. Go see your teacher and ask them how it should be practiced.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Is guru yoga enough?

Postby Andrew108 » Wed May 02, 2012 2:59 pm

:namaste:
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Is guru yoga enough?

Postby Rafael Maurin » Mon May 14, 2012 4:37 pm

Yes, Guru Yoga is enough, but...

But only when you do the practice for many lifes already and you are on the verge of Enlightenment...
Actually you can recognize the Nature of Mind while walking, running, sleeping or making love...
If you are prepere for that. That is the way of the 84 Mahassidhas.For instance Gotzangpa achived reallisation by mentally offering everything to his Guru.
But one have to work for it for many lifetimes to make that possible. And I`m afraid most of as are not in this leage yet...
So let`s be honest - we shoud probably do more :thinking:

Also, Karmapa Thaye Dorje was asked same question and said that theoretically it is possible, but in reallity only few can achive that without doing other practices
such as Mahamudra or 6 yogas ( as far as I remember)
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