An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Simon E. » Fri May 18, 2012 2:21 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Lobsang P. wrote:I note your view but do not accept it. Consensual sexual relationships are only truly consensual between equals.
Men and women are not 100% equal in our society, does that mean that a heterosexual relationship can never be consensual?


The relationship is not between the individual and society. It is between two people of either gender. Male and female, or male and male or female and female And within that relationship whatever the gender mix there needs to be an equal footing in order for it to be truly consensual .
Between student and teacher that is highly problematic. Whether that teachers subject is math, languages or Dharma.
Even secular colleges recognise that and bring sanctions to bear on teachers that cross the line.
What to speak of Dharma teachers.
:namaste:[/quote]
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri May 18, 2012 2:47 pm

Lobsang P. wrote:The relationship is not between the individual and society. It is between two people of either gender. Male and female, or male and male or female and female And within that relationship whatever the gender mix there needs to be an equal footing in order for it to be truly consensual .
Between student and teacher that is highly problematic. Whether that teachers subject is math, languages or Dharma.
Even secular colleges recognise that and bring sanctions to bear on teachers that cross the line.
What to speak of Dharma teachers.
:namaste:
What is society if not the sum of individual relationships? You can not divorce the individual from the society they inhabit nor the society... The reality is that there can never be absolute equality in any relationship. But consensus does not presuppose equality, consensus is about mutual agreement. In the world we live in a true consensus can never be reached because there will always be power imbalances. It is possible though to (try to) not bring the power imbalances into every aspect of interpersonal relationships. I am not saying that ON does this, I am just saying it is possible (but really bloody difficult). Now, of course, I agree with you that teachers should not have relationships with their students, it tends to make things rather messy. But you also have to take into account that there are people (both men and women) out there that actually want casual sex and want to have sex with people they perceive of as "superior" to them (for any number of reasons). So there can be consensual casual sex between a teacher and student no matter how morally repugnant you may consider it AND in the Dharma sphere too. Check out the lives of Padmasambhava (Mandarava and Yeshe Tsogyal were his students and lovers) , the 6th Dalai Lama, the Mahasiddha Dompipa (and other Mahasiddhas) or Drukpa Kunley. Now I am not saying that ON is a tantric adept like the aforementioned individuals, just that the phenomenon does exist.
:namaste:
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Willy » Sun May 20, 2012 1:35 am

Rafael Maurin wrote:No one is really going to argue that the title of "Lama" in the Kagyu tradition is reserved for practitioners (lay or monastic) who complete a traditional 3 year retreat. Correct?? So the fact that he has given himself the title "Lama" without such credentials is troubling is it not?
Also, the fact that even his supporters here call DW "cultish" and his that his followers are "blindly in love with him". A defender of him says "knowledge about the Dharma is very limited amond DW members. That is all true."


Here you can find some clarification about his title "Lama"http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/documents/ole_shamar_letter.pdf
And here some more http://www.lama-ole-nydahl.org/documents.htm

When I said about "cultish" atmosphere, I should add that it is not that everyone in DW centers beheve like that, but that there are some people who display this cultish attitude.
On the other hand - Ole is their Guru, so...When I`m thinking or talking about my Gurus it is also possible that someone will think me "blindly in love with cultish approach" :thinking:

And a`propos being Ole`s defender - I dont think there is anything to defend really. Ole is a buddhist teacher, - his work of spreading the Dharma is immense. His style is not a traditionale one, but he is teaching Dharma, dont forget that. And he benefits people. Many people. As I said before if you dont like his style no one is forcing you to follow him.
Someone may say that his presentation of Dharma is not 100% correct at times, and I would agree. But, there is a diffrence between not 100% correct and wrong... There are thousands of people - literally, who would never turn to Dharma if presented in a traditionale way. But now, they are Ole`s students, they are doing Ngondro, practicing and reading about the Dharma, rather than doing something else...Is that not benefitial?

Also, I would like to share a story with you.
My friend, who is a Nyingmapa and Dzogchen practicioner, told me that he attended a Dharma course some years ago with the late H.H Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche - great dzogchen master and Terton. There were some people there criticizing Ole Nydhal, spreding gossip and so on. At some point, Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche said that they should stop doing it at once, or he will leave and never return to teach them...He said that Ole is a great Bodhisattva who is extremly skillful in spreading the dharma, even to people that have very little connection with the path...

Good day to you all :anjali:


:thumbsup: :good:
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Yangtso » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:53 pm

The Buddha Sakyamuni taught the ten virtues as a foundation austerity, did he not?

Vidyadharas (8th bhumi Bodhisattva) were not taught to discard them nor
are those of lesser or greater realization, unless the teaching is not dharma?

Show the Sutra reference if this is otherwise.
Else it is not Dharma just ones opinion.

Because teachers like HH Sakya Trizin teach that all noble beings hold the ten
virtues. Even Vidyadharas gain karma from not adhering to the ten virtues. Also
they instill bad habits in others. Or conversely they are taking on bad habits
of others to liberate them? This would require a fully enlightened Buddha
emanating as a Vidyadhara.

I would argue that to gain entourages by actually
physically sleeping with multitudes of women either in orgies or serial monogamy or
pimping is to misread the tantras. Apparently there are some naughty nobles,
among the emanations? And some wannabes. Who will work to purify that karma at some future
point as the fruit arises; but the point of no turning back is to denounce you root guru
and the sutras are clear as to what happened to Devadatta

So the harm done is the negative karma. And the virtue of abstaining from immoral
sex is basically, only with your wife, not the gurus consort, not in a temple, not on her period
and not in other orifices. Clearly you open your self up to other energies or entities,
causing difficulties along the path.

This is the teaching of Dharma from the Buddha not a popular advertisement
or a popular movement.

The life story of Yasodhara tells of how she was Buddha's wife for eons,
and there were occasions where he broke this vow. In one
the second wife killed him, and in others he became imprisoned, bound
or held and she had to ransom herself to mitigate and free him from his
karmic bonds. She saved him for death and attacks by others countless times.

One of the fruits of the karma of sexual misconduct would be not to have
a wife as noble as Yasodhara. As she asked the Buddha for permission
to enter nirvana he recognized her as being the first one
beside him from the beginning of his sangha.

If the Nobel Bodhisattva himself traversing the path is not immune from the
laws of cause and effect how can we claim that we, the masses
and the Dharma teachers are exempt?
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:47 pm

There is a woman who is currently publicly accusing Ole Nydahl and Thaye Dorje of some kind of abuse. I cannot really follow her argumentation or remotely claim to understand what exactly it is she is accusing them with. It is not an accusation of sexual abuse on a physical level, however she claims that Nydahl would have "violently opened her kundalini", "pushed her into the bardo state", and both Nydahl and Thaye Dorje would have "offered her as their secret consort".

Her story appears quite weird to me, she is mixing up Hindu-Yoga terminology and some ideology from the Trimondis and from some other sources, and quite frankly it appears to me that she doesn't even know what "bardo" means. She must have had some kind of ASC (altered states of consciousness) when she was a student of Ole Nydahl's which she interprets as a result of Nydahl performing some secret magic rituals on her. Now she is sueing him for abuse and he is apparently sueing her for libel.

I personally do not have the impression that her accusations make sense.

Maybe this letter by Shamar Rinpoche is meant as a defense against these charges. :shrug:
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:08 pm

I didn't mean to say that this document should be used as a legal defense in court. But whenever Ole is publicly critisised his students get irritated. Maybe this document is meant as some kind of reassurance for Ole's students that he is a good teacher and these accusations are not true:

The Diamond Way Buddhist centers are free from any scandals or fabricated teachings.
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:18 pm

Not all of Ole's students are completely free of any doubts.

Anyway, I'm not happy with this document either. One cannot just define everything which is questionable about Ole and his centers away by performing a declarative speech act and pronouncing everything Ole teaches as true. Maybe this is how things worked in Tibet. But in the West things don't work this way.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby AlexanderS » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:41 pm

I don't see why it's wrong to critize a religion if the critiscm is legitimate. I suppose the Buddha Shakyamuni should not have belittled hindu teachings. What is the politically correct thing to say is not always the correct thing to say.

Ole Nydahls anti-islamic remarks annoy me mostly because when I attend teachings on buddhism I am mostly interested in learning about buddhism and not about Islam. I have a very low opinion of Islam in the modern world so I do not disagree with him as such.

Ole Nydahls sexual relations, also annoy me, but if it brings joy to him and his partners then the problem is with me and not with him. And his sex life is mainly none of my buisness.

Despite the fact that his style is not in complete harmony with my own, does not mean I have not experienced benefit from his teachings and his activity, and even though certain things annoy me it does not suddenly mean I consider him to be an inauthentic teacher.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:20 pm

AlexanderS wrote:I don't see why it's wrong to critize a religion if the critiscm is legitimate. I suppose the Buddha Shakyamuni should not have belittled hindu teachings. What is the politically correct thing to say is not always the correct thing to say. Ole Nydahls anti-islamic remarks annoy me mostly because when I attend teachings on buddhism I am mostly interested in learning about buddhism and not about Islam. I have a very low opinion of Islam in the modern world so I do not disagree with him as such.


A couple of quotes from Ole's book The Way Things Are (2003 reprint):

"Probably nobody informed expects anything but hate and suppression from Islam" p.22 (I think Islam was changed to "totalitarian religions" in later editions - no doubt by a wary publisher)
"Every human equipped with reason should insist on limiting the birth rates in the ghettos and poor countries of the world" p.54

Neither of these statements could remotely be thought of as representing dharmic speech or well-thought out objections.

AlexanderS wrote:Ole Nydahls sexual relations, also annoy me, but if it brings joy to him and his partners then the problem is with me and not with him. And his sex life is mainly none of my buisness.


A teacher (of any kind) should not use his position to obtain sex from his students. It's not just once or twice - he is repeatedly seeking out sexual partners. Up until a few years ago he maintained a wife, an mistress (Caty Hartung) and a girl in every port - he's like a randy old goat. It's hardly edifiying for a man now in his '70s to be chasing girls in their '20s and especially not for a Buddhist teacher.

I am told too he has also fathered several illegitimate children which I assume Diamondway as his sole source of income must indirectly support. And, if true, makes his call for limiting birth rates more than a little hypocritical. If Shamarpa has said none of the above is true then he has not due diligence before giving support. If he does know - and I think it is pretty clear that he does - he's only damaging his own reputation.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:45 pm

AlexanderS wrote:I don't see why it's wrong to critize a religion if the critiscm is legitimate.


The problem is that a centuries old world religion like the Islam is never a homogenous system. Neither is Christianity nor Buddhism. You can also find quotations from the Bible which say that somebody who "blasphemeth the LORD" should be stoned to death and so on. And yet you cannot identify the entirety of Judeo-Christian culture with this form of religious extremism (as which we rightly perceive it today).

Ole stubbornly refuses to differentiate between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism, and by doing so he generates hatred and despise for a world religion that also comprises such peaceful schools as Sufism.

When Shamar Rinpoche writes

It has been my observation that Lama Ole has been criticizing radical Islam already since the 70s and early 80s.


this is not exactly true to the facts, because Ole is not criticising radical Islam, he is criticising Islam in general. So, before Shamarpa can agree with Ole, he silently has to reformulate Ole's position first, which does of course imply a criticism.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:52 pm

Does Shamarpa really think that this is the type of behavior he can defend in a Dharma teacher:

Image

Anyone reading this - would your teacher do this? In a shrineroom?
Last edited by Knotty Veneer on Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:53 pm

Or this:
Image
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby AlexanderS » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:07 am

Knotty Veneer wrote:Does Shamarpa really think that this is the type of behavior he can defend in a Dharma teacher:

Image

Anyone reading this - would your teacher do this? In a shrineroom?


I would imagine he is kissing her on the forehead, and giving her a blessing at the heartcenter with the medallion he carries.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Knotty Veneer » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:29 am

Response to AlexanderS:

If you cannot see that Ole's behavior in regard to the women in those photos is inappropriate for a Dharma teacher, you need to perhaps widen your experience by visiting some other Tibetan Buddhist centres. I know of no other group where an elderly (and any other) lama would touch young girls like that. If as you say in the first photo, he is giving a blessing - that usually done by placing relics on the top of the head. I can't see exactly what he's doing in the second photo either but again I can't see why any teacher would be fiddling with a student's bra strap.

You are right not to approve of Ole's sexual behavior. It is not a problem inside DWB because Ole tells people that it is not a problem and any one who contradicts him usualy doesn't get to stick around. Behavior like you see in those photos does not happen in Buddhist groups where the lama is concerned for the welfare of his students instead of his own sexual kicks.

As regards your responses to the quotes on Islam and birth rates. You appear to be as misguided as Ole himself.

I do not think Islam is all the great either hence I am a not a Muslim but as ReasonandRhyme pointed out it is a very diverse phenomenon and you cannot tar everybody with the same brush. Many - probably most - Muslims are ordinary decent people. It is wrong to blame them all for the sins of the fanatics. Also such statements are an unskillful way to engage the fanatics who love to feel they are under attack - it justifies their violence in their eyes.

As regards curbing the birthrate of the poor - that is simple old fashioned ignorant eugenics. The wealthy white Europeans and Americans use many more of the world's resources than the poor in Africa and Asia. Yes we need to look at the population problem but we also need to look at the distribution of wealth. Statements like Ole's reveal a fear that the theft of the biggest share of the world's resources by the First World will not be able to continue. It should not. Statements like that have Far Right fanatic written all over them.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby AlexanderS » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:00 am

Knotty Veneer wrote:Response to AlexanderS:

If you cannot see that Ole's behavior in regard to the women in those photos is inappropriate for a Dharma teacher, you need to perhaps widen your experience by visiting some other Tibetan Buddhist centres. I know of no other group where an elderly (and any other) lama would touch young girls like that. If as you say in the first photo, he is giving a blessing - that usually done by placing relics on the top of the head. I can't see exactly what he's doing in the second photo either but again I can't see why any teacher would be fiddling with a student's bra strap.

You are right not to approve of Ole's sexual behavior. It is not a problem inside DWB because Ole tells people that it is not a problem and any one who contradicts him usualy doesn't get to stick around. Behavior like you see in those photos does not happen in Buddhist groups where the lama is concerned for the welfare of his students instead of his own sexual kicks.

As regards your responses to the quotes on Islam and birth rates. You appear to be as misguided as Ole himself.

I do not think Islam is all the great either hence I am a not a Muslim but as ReasonandRhyme pointed out it is a very diverse phenomenon and you cannot tar everybody with the same brush. Many - probably most - Muslims are ordinary decent people. It is wrong to blame them all for the sins of the fanatics. Also such statements are an unskillful way to engage the fanatics who love to feel they are under attack - it justifies their violence in their eyes.

As regards curbing the birthrate of the poor - that is simple old fashioned ignorant eugenics. The wealthy white Europeans and Americans use many more of the world's resources than the poor in Africa and Asia. Yes we need to look at the population problem but we also need to look at the distribution of wealth. Statements like Ole's reveal a fear that the theft of the biggest share of the world's resources by the First World will not be able to continue. It should not. Statements like that have Far Right fanatic written all over them.


Ole blesses people with the medallion on 3 body points. Head, throat, heart.

I think you are jumping to conclusions as to what is going on on the other photo. She might be showing him a tatoo. I don't see the point of taking her brah off or whatever you think is going on.

I'm not painting all muslims over the same brush. I've personally met many decent muslims. That doesn't change my opinion on Islams general effect on the modern world. There were plenty of ordinary muslims burning down embassies, killing and rioting, because a danish cartoonist made a satirical picture of muhammed. It is imbecelic primitive behaviour. And there have been honour killings in muslim families in little denmark and muslim women are generally opressed.

No fear of the worlds exploding population is not eugenics, it's common sense. I'm not talking about sterilizing people. Boooming populations in ghetto's and poor countries simply increase the risk of hunger, poverty, social instability and war.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Kelwin » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:13 am

Knotty Veneer wrote:If you cannot see that Ole's behavior in regard to the women in those photos is inappropriate for a Dharma teacher, you need to perhaps widen your experience by visiting some other Tibetan Buddhist centres. I know of no other group where an elderly (and any other) lama would touch young girls like that. If as you say in the first photo, he is giving a blessing - that usually done by placing relics on the top of the head. I can't see exactly what he's doing in the second photo either but again I can't see why any teacher would be fiddling with a student's bra strap.


In the first pic he's holding the gau that he uses to bless his students. It contains relics from the whole Kagyu lineage and more. touches people with it to the head, throat, and heart. Sometimes also to places of injury. Whatever you think of the teacher here, that gau is a powerful thing. 16th Karmapa gave him most of the contents, some of it extremely rare (like hairs of all the Karmapas, etc.)

Can't see what he's doing in the second pic, but if it looks like a sexual act to you then I believe you have other issues :tongue:

(no offense intended there by the way, I wish we could just discuss and joke about these things face to face over a drink. The internet is not very conducive for enlightened debate)
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:58 pm

Kelwin wrote:
catmoon wrote:The topic of this thread is not the reading skills or lack thereof of the participants. Please stick to the topic and avoid personal comments and insinuations.

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:
honestdboy wrote:Gee, it seems that the purpose of Shamarpa's letter is crystal clear if you have even 3rd grade English reading skills. Did any of you wise critics actually read the letter? Lama Ole and Shamarpa go way back. Can anyone who has read the letter tell me how many years? Yes, you have to read the letter to answer the question. Good luck.. :sage:

This is a very offending post, honestdboy.

Are you guys serious? It's ok to speculate about the motives of a letter, insult 2 lamas in every possible way, post pictures of girls implying that their might somehow be some harm done to them, but when it's pointed out that you should just read the letter this is considered offending? Really? A little wisdom would be appreciated.


Hi Kelwin,

I am completely serious. Btw Knotty Veneer and I are two different persons, we have some opinions about this matter in common, but we also have some differences in opinion here. For instance I do not see Ole's habit of blessing people with his gau by touching their upper three chakras with it as scandalous, either. But on the other hand I cannot see that the mere fact that Knotty Veneer has posted these fotos here in itself would constitute an insult or a form of "lama bashing".

I for my part am not aware of having insulted anybody here. I did however speculate about Shamar Rinpoches motives but IMO that is not an insult per se. I do have the greatest respect for Shamar Rinpoche as a Buddhist meditation master, however I'm not really happy with his position regarding Ole Nydahl.

Honestdboy did not "simply point out that we should read the letter" as you put it. If he would have done so, that in itself would already have been a bit polemic, implying that everybody who comes to a different interpretation than honestdboy doesn't know what he's talking about. But implying we don't even have "3rd grade English reading skills" is a bit strong. This is a personal insult and I think we shouldn't communicate this way.

Bye,

R'n'R
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:47 pm

Quite a few westerners have been authorised to teach by Tibetan Lamas. Some even here on DW.

The first question to ask is whether the Tibetan Lama should be teaching, let alone 'authorising' others to do so.

Some westerners are also 'authorised' to give empowerments, even at HYT level, some again seemingly without having to do much except be a senior student.

It is a complex business and we may look at these things through western eyes and be misled. Equally, Tibetans may look at the behaviour of a westerner and misinterpret things and trust the wrong people.

One thing seems clear - there will always be mistakes. The sign of a healthy organisation is that those mistakes are recognised and remedied. I'm sure there are many problems with westerners, but sexual misbehaviour by ordained people seems to get a lot of publicity - Tibetan schools, Zen, NKT etc etc

Sexual misbehaviour is a nasty problem, but it is pretty transient - people die or their bits stop working or drop off.

If the lineage teachings themselves are wrecked by letting westerners teach and give empowerments who are badly trained and educated, the loss may be a lot more serious and long-lasting.

Just trying to contextualise what seems to have become a focus on a narrow element of behaviour, in the broader context of what is harmful to the Sangha and the survival of the Dharma.
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby dakinilover » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:08 pm

Hello everyone :smile:

As for not approving of students visiting other teachers in DW, well, I don’t need anyone’s approval, because I am a free man and I can visit whoever I want. There is a difference between visiting and following. If you, at the beginning of your journey, follow different paths and different teachers, you can get really confused. If you are kagyupa, sakyapa, gelugpa at the same time, you may as well start your own sect :smile: I think that one should first master one path and then dabble in other traditions, without the risk of confusion. The Rime movement is a great initiative, but should be applied by more advanced practitioners. I can see nothing wrong in visiting other teachers and learning from them, as long as you stick to the practice of one school. So listen what they have to say, but do it your way. Diamond way :smile:

Lama Ole and Hannah wanted to do 3 year retreat, but 16th Karmapa told them that going to the west and spreading dharma would be more beneficial for sentient beings, and assured them that fulfilling his wish would be as good for their personal development and realization as going to retreat. So Lama Ole didn’t get the title in the traditional way because he was busy following instructions given to him by his teacher.
I’ve recently learned an interesting thing about male and female practitioners. Women are not so overtly concerned with titles as men are, and I think it’s a healthy attitude to have :smile:
Would you reject a teacher, whose teachings are profound to you, because he has no title?
Difficult people are my teachers, my enemies are my teachers, and none of them possess any kind of Buddhist title. So maybe it’s better to concentrate on peoples good qualities and on the effect their teaching has on our development?
And besides, Karmapa choose Ole for this job, so if Ole is good enough for Karmapa, his good enough for me. Or maybe Karmapa made a mistake? Well, it’s possible, we all know that only the Pope is infallible :smile:

It’s been a while since I wrote anything in English and feel a little tired so I will present my views concerning Karmapa controversy and “islamophobia” some other time.
Have a nice Day of the Dead :smile:

:namaste:
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Re: An interesting academic analysis of Diamond Way

Postby Dhondrub » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:31 pm

dakinilover wrote:Hello everyone :smile:


Lama Ole and Hannah wanted to do 3 year retreat, but 16th Karmapa told them that going to the west and spreading dharma would be more beneficial for sentient beings, and assured them that fulfilling his wish would be as good for their personal development and realization as going to retreat. So Lama Ole didn’t get the title in the traditional way because he was busy following instructions given to him by his teacher.
I’ve recently learned an interesting thing about male and female practitioners. Women are not so overtly concerned with titles as men are, and I think it’s a healthy attitude to have :smile:
Would you reject a teacher, whose teachings are profound to you, because he has no title?
Difficult people are my teachers, my enemies are my teachers, and none of them possess any kind of Buddhist title. So maybe it’s better to concentrate on peoples good qualities and on the effect their teaching has on our development?
And besides, Karmapa choose Ole for this job, so if Ole is good enough for Karmapa, his good enough for me. Or maybe Karmapa made a mistake? Well, it’s possible, we all know that only the Pope is infallible :smile:

It’s been a while since I wrote anything in English and feel a little tired so I will present my views concerning Karmapa controversy and “islamophobia” some other time.
Have a nice Day of the Dead :smile:

:namaste:


Dear Dakinilover,
I don't want to get into my personal deluded vision of Ole. I would only like to make a point that of course the Gyalwang Karmapa is omnicient, but HH is not the pope as you already joked. And this is not Christianity or any other theistic religion for that matter. So that His Holiness endorsed Ole at one point doesnt make Ole infallible. Sentient beings have Karma that makes them a suitable vessel but they also constantly create new Karma as long as they are not fully realized. So the fact remains that even beings with a good deal of devotion, merit and bodhicitta still have the potenial to mess it all up. Even more in the Vajrayana where is only up or down, like a snake in a bambootube. Rudra was also a suitable Vajrayana disciple once ( I am not sayin Mr Nydhal is Rudra).
So HH Karmapa is omiscient and uncompareably kind, but he can only work with samsaric beings as much as any other Buddha can. he can not guarantee an outcome as far as I understand. Samaya is a serious thing you know

That being said. I understand people are benefitting from Oles teaching, so I am not trying to discourage you from following your teacher.

All the best
Tashi
Dhondrub
 
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