More Trungpa talk

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby smcj » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:19 pm

There has been quite a bit of talk that Krishnamurti was actually a medium. But who can tell now...

But didn't you just say he was a large?
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
smcj
 
Posts: 2078
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:41 pm

smcj wrote:
There has been quite a bit of talk that Krishnamurti was actually a medium. But who can tell now...

But didn't you just say he was a large?

:lol:
He said he wasn't a small, which is consistent with being a medium.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2059
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:51 pm

MalaBeads wrote:I have little doubt he felt that way at times. The point is, he didn't do it.

From "Dragon Thunder":
The period from Rinpoche's accident until we married and left for
America a year later was one of the darkest times in his life. Rinpoche
was often in the depths of depression. He was sick with pleurisy and
pneumonia, he was crippled, his Tibetan compatriots were trying to
control him, and many of his students had left him. He felt that his only
reason for existence was to present the Buddhist teachings. Akong refused
to support him in teaching the way that he wanted to, and he had
very few students in England who could hear what he had to say. For
Rinpoche, if he had no opportunity to present the buddhadharma, the
Buddhist teachings, life was not worth living. He told me at several
points that if he couldn't teach, he had no reason to go on.

That night in the hotel, Rinpoche had a big jar of Seconals, which
are sleeping pills. I don't know where he had obtained them. At one
point that night, he turned to me and said, "Let's take all these pills. Let's
just do it." I grabbed the bottle out of his hand and threw the pills out of
the hotel window, saying, "We're not going to do that. There's a future
for us." Then we went to bed.

I'm not sure if Rinpoche really meant it, if he actually would have
taken an overdose. One might think he was testing me somehow, but I'm
not so sure. If l had said, "Okay, yes, let's kill ourselves," I think he might
have gone ahead. He loved those Japanese movies where the star-crossed
lovers commit double suicide, a bit like Romeo and Juliet.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2059
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby MalaBeads » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:02 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
smcj wrote:
There has been quite a bit of talk that Krishnamurti was actually a medium. But who can tell now...

But didn't you just say he was a large?

:lol:
He said he wasn't a small, which is consistent with being a medium.



<groan>

American humor
MalaBeads
 
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:47 am

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:28 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:I have little doubt he felt that way at times. The point is, he didn't do it.

From "Dragon Thunder":
The period from Rinpoche's accident until we married and left for
America a year later was one of the darkest times in his life. Rinpoche
was often in the depths of depression. He was sick with pleurisy and
pneumonia, he was crippled, his Tibetan compatriots were trying to
control him, and many of his students had left him. He felt that his only
reason for existence was to present the Buddhist teachings. Akong refused
to support him in teaching the way that he wanted to, and he had
very few students in England who could hear what he had to say. For
Rinpoche, if he had no opportunity to present the buddhadharma, the
Buddhist teachings, life was not worth living. He told me at several
points that if he couldn't teach, he had no reason to go on.

That night in the hotel, Rinpoche had a big jar of Seconals, which
are sleeping pills. I don't know where he had obtained them. At one
point that night, he turned to me and said, "Let's take all these pills. Let's
just do it." I grabbed the bottle out of his hand and threw the pills out of
the hotel window, saying, "We're not going to do that. There's a future
for us." Then we went to bed.

I'm not sure if Rinpoche really meant it, if he actually would have
taken an overdose. One might think he was testing me somehow, but I'm
not so sure. If l had said, "Okay, yes, let's kill ourselves," I think he might
have gone ahead. He loved those Japanese movies where the star-crossed
lovers commit double suicide, a bit like Romeo and Juliet.


Hmm. I had no idea. I really should read it...I haven't thought of doing so until this thread consistently brings to light aspects of his life that seem so much more immediate and human than much of what we hear about the lives of renowned Gurus.

I think the gun photo is just a marvelous artifact of his gruesome and madcap humor. (which i share)
User avatar
Nilasarasvati
 
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 3:08 am
Location: Trāyastriṃśa. Just kidding. What a cool sanksrit word, huh?

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:03 pm

Yes, "Dragon Thunder" is a very interesting book. I also recommend "Warrior-King of Shambhala: Remembering Chogyam Trungpa" by Jeremy Hayward and "The Mahasiddha and His Idiot Servant" by John Riley Perks. Maybe I will post some excerpts later.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2059
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby honestdboy » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:08 am

dzogchungpa wrote:Yes, "Dragon Thunder" is a very interesting book. I also recommend "Warrior-King of Shambhala: Remembering Chogyam Trungpa" by Jeremy Hayward and "The Mahasiddha and His Idiot Servant" by John Riley Perks. Maybe I will post some excerpts later.


I loved "Dragon Thunder" (except for the endless talk about the writer's passion for horses). I'm happy the author wasn't too harsh in writing about the Regent, since his wife is one of the best teachers I ever met. I wish the other biographies were available as e-books! :thanks:
honestdboy
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:29 pm

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:34 am

honestdboy wrote:I loved "Dragon Thunder" (except for the endless talk about the writer's passion for horses).

Yes, there really was too much about dressage, but, hey, it's her book, that's what she's into.
I'm happy the author wasn't too harsh in writing about the Regent, since his wife is one of the best teachers I ever met.

Are you a student of Lila Rich? I would be interested to hear about that.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2059
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:12 am

MalaBeads wrote:True enough that this is not thread about Krishnamurti but since the topic has come up i can add just one small story.

But first (LOL) the disclaimer: i have not read much at all of Krishnamurti. Too dry and obscure for me. To each his own in that regard. And I never met or saw him. So what I am about to relate is not my own experience but rather a story told me to me by a close friend.

Im telling it here because I somehow dont think it is right to trash him out of hand like I see being done here. I have learned that whatever vajrayana teaching is done by a teacher is always for a particular group of people, at a particular time and place and for a particular reason. So to grasp what someone says and then hold it up forever as if it were the only thing to realize is kind of....well, not so intelligent.

Anyway, the bit about Krishnamurti.

I have a friend who lived in Ojai when he was still alive. She was very young at the time, had never heard of him, etc. etc.
She was out walking in the hills around Ojai one day when three people approached her from the opposite direction. Two women and a small Indian man walking in the middle. They all passed on the path, nodded to each other and went on. She said for some reason she looked back at them after they were past her. And she saw the small man in the middle of a golden aura of light. Its one of those moments she has always remembered and learned later that this man was Krisnamurti.

I have no idea whatsoever why Trungpa Rinpche said what he said about K. There could be any number of reasons, perhaps including his own karma that he needed to work out. Who knows. But somehow I dont think K. was a dreadful man.

Other than this, I have no opinions about him. No idea really.

:shrug:

I can add two stories to your story.
A while before the recording of the video of the one way conversation between CTR and Krishnamurti...and anyone who knew CTR could see his uncharacteristic lack of engagement..he quickly formed the view that K. was an egomaniac...Krishnamurti was taken for a meal by a couple of CTR's senior students. One knew nothing about him, the other had read a lot of his material and formed a very positive impression. They came back from lunch with K. saying that it had been an embarrassment. Krishnamurti was loud and complaining the whole time. He didn't like the food. He was rude to the waiters. He whined and nagged his way through the whole thing.
There were a couple of his people there too who appeared too nervous to contribute anything to the discussion. And who quite clearly knew their place.

Around that same time my brother-in -law attended a retreat led by K. He left early saying that K. spent a lot of time wandering around the campus where the retreat was based being unpleasant to everyone.
It appears you can take the boy out of the messianic role, but you can't take the messianic role out of the boy.
Simon E.
 
Posts: 2543
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Simon E. » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:20 am

Stewart wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:
michaelb wrote:I've never had much of a connection to CTR but liked the books of his I've read. I also liked the one I read by his Dharma regent that I read years ago. I can't remember much about it now, though.

Anyway the reason I thought I'd post on this thread was to ask about the tradition that CTR was part of and how that shaped his approach. Was being a student of Khenpo Gangshar significant in CTR's later behaviour, rather than the western students he was teaching? I've had some contact with a few Kagyu lamas that CTR was close to in England and other students of Khenpo Gangshar. None of them act in a crazy/controversial way, as far as I know.

Also, it seems CTR has influenced other lamas active in teaching in the west, maybe, from what I have heard, inspiring them to misbehave. This would be a more serious legacy, I think.


michaelb

Your post reminded me of Lama Chime who lives in England and was also a student Khenpo Gangshar and one of the first Tibetans to come to the west. I heard Lama Chime say that once that when Trungpa Rinpoche was around him (Lama Chime) he (Trungpa Rinpoche) would get a little crazy.

Lama Chime is one of those extraordinary Lamas who has kept a very low profile, married an English woman, had three kids, worked in a 9-5 most of his life, etc., made no trouble, created no scandals and still managed to be an extraordinary teacher.

Another one of those lamas I have only love for.



Hi Malabeads....

Have you ever met and spoke with Chime Rinpoche?

I have met him on many occasions when I lived at Samye Ling... Publically he is very low key, you're right... But privately he has a real wild streak, and is quite unpredictable! I won't go into details here, but believe me he has a real streak of Khenpo Gangshar! I hope you have the fortune to experience this side of him... It was a real eye opener for me, as I was used to many Lamas being very formal and straight laced, even in private. Chime R has shocked me a few times... But it was refreshing!!

I can second this. Chime Rinpoche is a wonderful teacher...and totally unconventional. He shares more in common with CTR than just their Kagyu background.
But as this is likely to be misunderstood , its best left there.
Simon E.
 
Posts: 2543
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby honestdboy » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:46 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
honestdboy wrote:I loved "Dragon Thunder" (except for the endless talk about the writer's passion for horses).

Yes, there really was too much about dressage, but, hey, it's her book, that's what she's into.
I'm happy the author wasn't too harsh in writing about the Regent, since his wife is one of the best teachers I ever met.

Are you a student of Lila Rich? I would be interested to hear about that.


I would not say that I am Lila Rich's student. I took a Shambhala Training weekend intensive with her many years ago. :buddha1: She started the training by saying something like "You are all here because your heart has been broken." Right away, she had us in the palm of her hand.
honestdboy
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:29 pm

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:33 pm

Simon E. wrote:I can second this. Chime Rinpoche is a wonderful teacher...and totally unconventional. He shares more in common with CTR than just their Kagyu background.
But as this is likely to be misunderstood , its best left there.

I won't misunderstand. :smile:
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2059
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:34 pm

honestdboy wrote:I would not say that I am Lila Rich's student. I took a Shambhala Training weekend intensive with her many years ago. :buddha1: She started the training by saying something like "You are all here because your heart has been broken." Right away, she had us in the palm of her hand.

OK, thank you.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2059
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:02 pm

Gelek Rimpoche on Trungpa, from "Recalling Chogyam Trungpa":
He was a great Tibetan yogi, a friend, and a master. The more I deal with Western Dharma students, the more I appreciate how he presented the dharma and the activities that he taught. Whenever I meet with difficulties, I begin to understand—sometimes before solving the problem, sometimes afterward—why Trungpa Rinpoche did some unconventional things. I do consider him to be the father of Tibetan Buddhism in the United States. In my opinion, he left very early—too early. His death was a great loss. Everything he did is significant.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2059
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Greg » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:18 am

honestdboy wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Yes, "Dragon Thunder" is a very interesting book. I also recommend "Warrior-King of Shambhala: Remembering Chogyam Trungpa" by Jeremy Hayward and "The Mahasiddha and His Idiot Servant" by John Riley Perks. Maybe I will post some excerpts later.


I loved "Dragon Thunder" (except for the endless talk about the writer's passion for horses). I'm happy the author wasn't too harsh in writing about the Regent, since his wife is one of the best teachers I ever met. I wish the other biographies were available as e-books! :thanks:


Perks' book is, though not officially I don't think.
Greg
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:42 pm

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:34 pm

From "Warrior-King of Shambhala":
During the period of Rinpoche's illness, I was sitting alone with him in his private living room when he received a phone call. He took the call, and spoke at some length in Tibetan. After he put the phone down, he said, "That was Tai Situ Rinpoche. He's the most like me." He was referring to one of the four young Kagyu tulkus who were the most senior after the Karmapa and were sometimes referred to as the four Kagyu princes. I said, "Do you think he will go in the same direction as you?" "What do you mean?" Rinpoche asked with some surprise. "Well, you know, taking off your robes, drinking, and the women, and so on," I replied. He screwed up his face and said, brusquely, "I certainly hope not. I did what I did so that they wouldn't have to." Then he added, sadly, "It's been a very lonely journey, you know."
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2059
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:32 am

dzogchungpa wrote:From "Warrior-King of Shambhala":
During the period of Rinpoche's illness, I was sitting alone with him in his private living room when he received a phone call. He took the call, and spoke at some length in Tibetan. After he put the phone down, he said, "That was Tai Situ Rinpoche. He's the most like me." He was referring to one of the four young Kagyu tulkus who were the most senior after the Karmapa and were sometimes referred to as the four Kagyu princes. I said, "Do you think he will go in the same direction as you?" "What do you mean?" Rinpoche asked with some surprise. "Well, you know, taking off your robes, drinking, and the women, and so on," I replied. He screwed up his face and said, brusquely, "I certainly hope not. I did what I did so that they wouldn't have to." Then he added, sadly, "It's been a very lonely journey, you know."


< / 3

AAAGH!
:crying:
User avatar
Nilasarasvati
 
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 3:08 am
Location: Trāyastriṃśa. Just kidding. What a cool sanksrit word, huh?

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:03 am

An amusing story from Richard Barron (http://www.lotsawaschool.org/2012/03/lama-chokyi-nyima.html):
I can remember one occasion in particular, which stands as a high point in my career as an interpreter. Kalu Rinpoche was invited in the early 1980s to go to Trungpa Rinpoche’s seminary, which was a three month program held every year. He would do hinayana the first month, mahayana the second month and vajrayana the third month. I don’t know at what point we came, but it was by invitation. We had dinner with Trungpa Rinpoche, which was quite a scene in itself with his butler wearing white gloves and serving the food from silver salvers. Then the next morning Kalu Rinpoche was asked to address the sangha. I remember it was on that occasion that Allen Ginsberg decided to play devil’s advocate, and said, “What is the dharmic or a-dharmic reason for Trungpa Rinpoche’s drinking? And, as his students, how should we relate to that?” Of course, a deathly silence fell over the room, and I think the vajra guards were ready to jump him and cut his tongue out, but I translated it for Kalu Rinpoche. Rinpoche sort of smiled and said, “Well, let me tell you first about Padampa Sangye. Padampa Sangye was a real boozer and a lot of his students had a problem with that, and one of them finally asked him why, if he was an enlightened master, he was always drunk. And Padampa said, ‘Ah, the Padampa may be impaired, but the döndampa (absolute) is not.’”

So often the things that die are the jokes. They’re the things that would make the talk happen, but they don’t work in English if you are doing too literal a job. In this case, it just fell into place, and the audience loved it. Then he was able to say, “Now having said that, I myself am concerned about Trungpa Rinpoche’s health. I have no concerns about the morals or ethics of him drinking. I am concerned about his health and I think you as his students should be too. And you could go to him and say, ‘Please sir, we have absolute faith in you as our teacher, but for the sake of all beings, please consider extending your life by cutting back on your drinking.’” He said once you’ve accepted someone as your vajrayana teacher, you can’t speak to them from a perspective of ‘I am right and you’re wrong. You’re making a mistake and doing something bad and I insist that you change.’
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 2059
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Simon E. » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:18 am

I went to his room to fetch a book I knew he would need later...I was sure that he was not there so knocked the door quickly and went straight in.....The Vidyadhara was peeing in his washbasin.

' Dont mind me ' he said with a grin, ' I am just an unsophisticated Tibetan ' .
Simon E.
 
Posts: 2543
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby heart » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:50 am

Simon E. wrote:I went to his room to fetch a book I knew he would need later...I was sure that he was not there so knocked the door quickly and went straight in.....The Vidyadhara was peeing in his washbasin.

' Dont mind me ' he said with a grin, ' I am just an unsophisticated Tibetan ' .


:smile: something like that happened to me with an other Rinpoche.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
User avatar
heart
 
Posts: 3096
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Kagyu

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

>