More Trungpa talk

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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby michaelb » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:57 am

Fair enough. I don't know. I'm aware no one suggested that Tenzin Palmo became a great practitioner because she met Thrungpa, but listing her as his first western student in this discussion could, like mention of Pema Chodron, be taken as another example of CTR'S greatness. Which I think wouldn't be fair. But, how do I know? I think Tenzin Palmo was planning to go to India before meeting CTR, as she was already working at SOAS and learning Tibetan.
As you rightly say, only Buddhas can discern such things.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Adamantine » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:13 am

michaelb wrote:but listing her as his first western student in this discussion could, like mention of Pema Chodron, be taken as another example of CTR'S greatness.


If I were to compile a list of the things I am familiar with that would make a good case for CTR's "greatness", I don't think I would throw Tenzin Palmo in there. . . his life story and accomplishments don't need that extra support! If anything, I am guessing that was a tangential aside and it's gotten too much focus now, so :focus:
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:40 pm

Adamantine wrote:If anything, I am guessing that was a tangential aside and it's gotten too much focus now, so :focus:

As far as I can tell, the topic of this thread is Trungpa and his influence, so I think this actually is relevant. At any rate, it's interesting to me.

michaelb wrote:Fair enough. I don't know. I'm aware no one suggested that Tenzin Palmo became a great practitioner because she met Thrungpa, but listing her as his first western student in this discussion could, like mention of Pema Chodron, be taken as another example of CTR'S greatness. Which I think wouldn't be fair.

I dont know if it's fair, but apparently she WAS his first western student and had "great faith" in him, so for those who respect her judgement that fact might indeed be relevant to their evaluation of Trungpa's "greatness".
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:57 pm

If it weren't for Pema Chodron's and Tenzin Palmo's much more...modest examples of enlightened activity, I would still have great doubts about the consequences of Trungpa Rinpoche's activites.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby michaelb » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:20 pm

That's exactly the inference I was disagreeing with. Anyway, it really doesn't matter.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:44 pm

michaelb wrote:That's exactly the inference I was disagreeing with. Anyway, it really doesn't matter.

You're right, it's of no significance whatsoever.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:38 pm

Oops.

Image

Anybody got new food for thought? This thread has been fun for me thus far!
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Greg » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:12 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
smcj wrote:This will give the Shambhala people the willies. I got it by clinking on another DW thread called, "The Highest Maha Ati Teachings - Rigdzin Shikpo (Hookam)". It is in the context of letters exchanged between Shenpen Hookam and somebody named Walter.

Dear Shenpen,

I know that Rinpoche often expressed appreciation for Meister Eckhart -- but I don't remember his mentioning Krishnamurti. [Would anyone else like to chime in here? What books did Rinpoche recommended to you?]

Walter

Why would that give anyone the willies? Here's a passage from "Lion's Roar":
We might think, “I’m very smart, extraordinarily smart. I’ve read all the books on Buddhism, about the twelve nidanas and about everything else. I have the answers. I’ve read about tantra. I’ve read about Naropa and Milarepa. I’ve read Meister Eckhart, the medieval mystic who talks about beautiful things. And I’ve even read about Don Juan, who says wonderful things about the nature of reality. I’ve read Krishnamurti, who is very sensible. I’m hopeful, obviously. There’s got to be a way out somewhere. There must be something. Things can’t be all that gray and hopeless.”


He would have been familiar with Krishnamurti, seeing as they did a long talk show together: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqL9c4jYigk. And KM does all of the talking, haha.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Simon E. » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:56 am

For anyone who may not know the subsequent events, Krishnamurti's people contacted CTR's secretary some months later and suggested a follow-up...CTR gave him a long look ( I was there ) and said " Absolutely not ..dreadful man..dreadful. "
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby heart » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:28 am

Simon E. wrote:For anyone who may not know the subsequent events, Krishnamurti's people contacted CTR's secretary some months later and suggested a follow-up...CTR gave him a long look ( I was there ) and said " Absolutely not ..dreadful man..dreadful. "


:smile: my thoughts exactly.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Adamantine » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:34 am

:rolling:
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Knotty Veneer » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:14 am

heart wrote:
Simon E. wrote:For anyone who may not know the subsequent events, Krishnamurti's people contacted CTR's secretary some months later and suggested a follow-up...CTR gave him a long look ( I was there ) and said " Absolutely not ..dreadful man..dreadful. "


:smile: my thoughts exactly.

/magnus


Krishnamurti is someone whose writings do not seem to have stood the test of time. Is he reprinted much these days? I think the current generation of seekers would be hard pressed to know who he is. I think his fan base was largely composed of former Theosophy types and have largely died off.
Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Stewart » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:16 am

Yeah seconded... Krishnamurti is like watching paint dry... Same with his books, excruciating. It's all just words, spiritual gibberish... No method... Trungpa R should never have been put in that scenario.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Knotty Veneer » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:04 pm

Nilasarasvati wrote:If it weren't for Pema Chodron's and Tenzin Palmo's much more...modest examples of enlightened activity, I would still have great doubts about the consequences of Trungpa Rinpoche's activites.


I'm not so sure that Tenzin Palmo can really be claimed as a student of Trungpa. Her main teacher was the previous Khamtrul Rinpoche. Pema Chodron is interesting in that I think her main influence is really outside both the Kagyu and the Shambhala traditions. I don't think the majority of her readers go on to read Trungpa or might even consider themselves Buddhists. I think actually she may have done more to popularize Buddhist concepts in contemporary culture than Trungpa himself.
Everyone talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it - Mark Twain.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Dan74 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:06 pm

I am obviously missing out because I get a lot more out of reading a page with Krishnamurti's quotes like http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/850512.Jiddu_Krishnamurti or http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti than an average page of DW. Maybe one day I will awaken to your wisdom, Gentlemen.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby MalaBeads » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:14 pm

True enough that this is not thread about Krishnamurti but since the topic has come up i can add just one small story.

But first (LOL) the disclaimer: i have not read much at all of Krishnamurti. Too dry and obscure for me. To each his own in that regard. And I never met or saw him. So what I am about to relate is not my own experience but rather a story told me to me by a close friend.

Im telling it here because I somehow dont think it is right to trash him out of hand like I see being done here. I have learned that whatever vajrayana teaching is done by a teacher is always for a particular group of people, at a particular time and place and for a particular reason. So to grasp what someone says and then hold it up forever as if it were the only thing to realize is kind of....well, not so intelligent.

Anyway, the bit about Krishnamurti.

I have a friend who lived in Ojai when he was still alive. She was very young at the time, had never heard of him, etc. etc.
She was out walking in the hills around Ojai one day when three people approached her from the opposite direction. Two women and a small Indian man walking in the middle. They all passed on the path, nodded to each other and went on. She said for some reason she looked back at them after they were past her. And she saw the small man in the middle of a golden aura of light. Its one of those moments she has always remembered and learned later that this man was Krisnamurti.

I have no idea whatsoever why Trungpa Rinpche said what he said about K. There could be any number of reasons, perhaps including his own karma that he needed to work out. Who knows. But somehow I dont think K. was a dreadful man.

Other than this, I have no opinions about him. No idea really.

:shrug:
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby heart » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:16 pm

"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Dan74 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:20 pm

Krishnamurti may have on occasion been dreadful, but he was certainly not small. But thanks for the anecdote (sometimes details gets mangled in the retelling).

The conversation with Trungpa Rinpoche was certainly not one of his best. For some reason CTR seemed to have ruffled his feathers. There has been quite a bit of talk that Krishnamurti was actually a medium. But who can tell now...
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:24 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:I'm not so sure that Tenzin Palmo can really be claimed as a student of Trungpa. Her main teacher was the previous Khamtrul Rinpoche.

Vicki Mackenzie wrote: She became a private pupil of the talented Trungpa. Now instead of having only a few books to turn to for guidance, she had a living resource. She was delighted.

It is possible to have teachers other than your main teacher. Of course, this is all so very unimportant.
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby MalaBeads » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:31 pm

Nilasarasvati wrote:Oops.

Image

Anybody got new food for thought? This thread has been fun for me thus far!


Nila,

I have no idea whether this is 'new food for thought' but I will comment.

I have little doubt he felt that way at times. The point is, he didn't do it.
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