More Trungpa talk

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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Konchog1 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:22 pm

anjali wrote:
smcj wrote:Just a random thought; the final and true arbiter of a person's virtue or vice is--what else--their karma! CTR's new incarnation doesn't seem to be feeling any harmful effects from his previous life, at least not yet.
Unless of course you believe that karma can be eliminated
That's impossible. Vajrasattva practice just prevents the karma from having a full effect.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:55 pm

Konchog1 wrote:
anjali wrote:
smcj wrote:Just a random thought; the final and true arbiter of a person's virtue or vice is--what else--their karma! CTR's new incarnation doesn't seem to be feeling any harmful effects from his previous life, at least not yet.
Unless of course you believe that karma can be eliminated
That's impossible. Vajrasattva practice just prevents the karma from having a full effect.


You can see this, or you are relying upon a particular text? If it is based upon a text, it might be best to quote from it to substantiate.
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
~Arthur Carlson
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby anjali » Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:03 am

Konchog1 wrote:
anjali wrote:
smcj wrote:Just a random thought; the final and true arbiter of a person's virtue or vice is--what else--their karma! CTR's new incarnation doesn't seem to be feeling any harmful effects from his previous life, at least not yet.
Unless of course you believe that karma can be eliminated
That's impossible. Vajrasattva practice just prevents the karma from having a full effect.


Per the Dalai Lama, from The Path to Enlightenment, p117:
On the basis of this resolve [to purify one's mind of the negative traces] one takes refuge, develops the bodhimind and enters the Vajrasattava meditation or whatever method is being used. One can also do exercises such as prostrations and so forth. This concentration of purifying energies destroys the potency of negative karmic imprints like the germ of a barley seed roasted in fire.

As we veer off-topic...
All things are unworthy of clinging to (sabbe dhammā nâla abhinivesāyā). --Buddha
If there is clinging, you do not have the view. --Drakpa Gyaltsen
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:05 am

I'm gonna share my weird personal reflections to veer us (somewhat) back on:

Only a wingnut, eccentric, charming/dangerous, terrifying magician like him could magnetize the incredibly arrogant, nihilistic, traumatized and cynical intellectuals and deviants like me. In fact, part of why I got interested in Tibetan Buddhism is because of the writings of Alan Ginsburg, who in so many ways epitomizes radical embodiment and radical thought. Somebody who recognized how psychedelia was a crucial step for westerners to taste the nondual; perhaps to even "catch up" psychically when their Materialist Cartesian Nihilist, Judeo-Christian Theist world had so stunted them.

So...radicals, queers, hippies, those who still believe that counter-culture was the best thing that ever happened to American (and Western) culture--only Trungpa Rinpoche could have got through to us. To make us realize the oppressor wasn't outside but inside. To, most importantly, show that Buddhist teachers were something more than just obsolete Medieval sorcerers thrust into a world where they had nothing to offer but the desperate superstition and ritual we had so long ago rejected in the Catholic clergy.

:spy: For a degenerate nihilist perv like me or Alan Ginsburg, what other Guru could scrape us out of the gutter?
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:31 am

Here is an interesting interview with Jack Niland, an artist and student of Trungpa's:
http://www.chronicleproject.com/stories_119.html

I especially appreciated this image:
Image
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:44 am

Haha!!! That is amazing! I have seen his VAjrayogini around...I wish this method really had caught on. I am largely frustrated and uninspired when it comes to traditional Thangkas.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby tobes » Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:51 am

Nilasarasvati wrote:I'm gonna share my weird personal reflections to veer us (somewhat) back on:

Only a wingnut, eccentric, charming/dangerous, terrifying magician like him could magnetize the incredibly arrogant, nihilistic, traumatized and cynical intellectuals and deviants like me. In fact, part of why I got interested in Tibetan Buddhism is because of the writings of Alan Ginsburg, who in so many ways epitomizes radical embodiment and radical thought. Somebody who recognized how psychedelia was a crucial step for westerners to taste the nondual; perhaps to even "catch up" psychically when their Materialist Cartesian Nihilist, Judeo-Christian Theist world had so stunted them.

So...radicals, queers, hippies, those who still believe that counter-culture was the best thing that ever happened to American (and Western) culture--only Trungpa Rinpoche could have got through to us. To make us realize the oppressor wasn't outside but inside. To, most importantly, show that Buddhist teachers were something more than just obsolete Medieval sorcerers thrust into a world where they had nothing to offer but the desperate superstition and ritual we had so long ago rejected in the Catholic clergy.

:spy: For a degenerate nihilist perv like me or Alan Ginsburg, what other Guru could scrape us out of the gutter?


Great post. Nailed. Tells us something very profound, and also begs the question: what of Tibetan Buddhism in the west now? Radical or conservative? Disrupting the status quo or endorsing it?

:anjali:
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:58 am

Tobes, this is really cool and I almost want to start a whole new thread for this question.
Let's GO There!


viewtopic.php?f=66&t=13052

Please help me narrow/refine the subject and scope of this question. It's pretty loose and I'm not sure what you meant entirely.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:33 am

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I would alot more open to these critical views of Trungpa if 90% of them weren't written in such shrill, preachy overtones. Seriously, if you wanna convince someone that they shouldn't listen to Trungpa, that is not the way to go about doing it.


I think there are shrill voices on both sides of this. I don't think Trungpa was evil but he was flawed. At one time, to suggest that Trungpa was anything other than godlike would bring down fierce opprobium from former members of his group. I think you should read Trungpa but bear in mind that the stuff put out by Shambhala is the official version and that there are other opinions. The truth lies no doubt somewhere in between.

As regards his relationship with Akong Rinpoche, I think Stewart has it right. And I have noticed over the years participating in internet forums that there seems to be/have been a narrative within Trungpa's organization that suggests Trungpa was either driven out of Samye Ling by tight-arsed politics or felt that Britain was not the place where his particular mission to the West could reach fruition because the British were not able to appreciate his revolutionary take on the Dharma and preferred to settle for a more fusty traditionalism.

I think this is nonsense and really another example of American exceptionalism. Just as the Pilgrim Fathers were driven to found the greatness nation on Earth through persecution and and the fulfilling of a divine plan, so Trungpa's arrival in the US replays the same founding narrative. In a sense Shambhala's nearest analogue is the Church of Latter Day Saints. Just as the Mormons created a truly American version of Christianity, Shambhala seems to be working towards creating an indigenous American form of Tantric Buddhism.


I understand all this, I also have no investment or interest in the Shambhala organization, I think (obviously) his legacy spreads out quite a bit farther than his official lineage..else we wouldn't be having this conversation, right?

When I picked up Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism years ago, the more I read about his bad deeds, weirdly enough the more I became attracted to Buddhism. I know it sounds terrible, but before reading him and learning a bit about him, I never would have even considered myself "qualified" to pursue spirituality..that was something for people more pure than me, with way less baggage, neurotic behavior, and self-hate. Whatever his flaws, seriously...knowing that someone so conventionally abnormal up could also have some insight did something for me. For me, it was the book that made me believe in the Buddhist path...it's possible something else down the line could have done the same, but I am a freaking weirdo, for me it still stands out as a really singular message that was a kind of wake up call.

Not trying to excuse whatever negatives really existed in his deeds (and for sure it sounds like there were a number), or to argue that his lineage itself doesn't have issues (again, it seems to most definitely have them!), but his legacy is obvious more than that...and it seems like a very hard thing to quantify. There has to be a reasonable place where we can both acknowledge that he engaged in some terrible behavior, but was also a brilliant teacher with some real insights. indeed, i read plenty of people who interacted with him who say just that.
"We're chained to the world and we all gotta pull" -Tom Waits
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:47 am

When I picked up Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism years ago, the more I read about his bad deeds, weirdly enough the more I became attracted to Buddhism. I know it sounds terrible, but before reading him and learning a bit about him, I never would have even considered myself "qualified" to pursue spirituality..that was something for people more pure than me, with way less baggage, neurotic behavior, and self-hate. Whatever his flaws, seriously...knowing that someone so conventionally abnormal up could also have some insight did something for me. For me, it was the book that made me believe in the Buddhist path...it's possible something else down the line could have done the same, but I am a freaking weirdo, for me it still stands out as a really singular message that was a kind of wake up call.

Not trying to excuse whatever negatives really existed in his deeds (and for sure it sounds like there were a number), or to argue that his lineage itself doesn't have issues (again, it seems to most definitely have them!), but his legacy is obvious more than that...and it seems like a very hard thing to quantify. There has to be a reasonable place where we can both acknowledge that he engaged in some terrible behavior, but was also a brilliant teacher with some real insights. indeed, i read plenty of people who interacted with him who say just that.


Disregard all my weird statements before--this is exactly what I meant. thank you for putting it so clearly. :twothumbsup:
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby smcj » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:38 am

:spy: For a degenerate nihilist perv like me or Alan Ginsburg, what other Guru could scrape us out of the gutter?

Great post. Nailed. Tells us something very profound.
:anjali:

Yes, bravo! Well done!
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby smcj » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:31 am

There has to be a reasonable place where we can both acknowledge that he engaged in some terrible behavior, but was also a brilliant teacher with some real insights. indeed, i read plenty of people who interacted with him who say just that.

I read where one of his students said, "He did both more harm and more good than any ten men I know."

I can't remember where I read it or who said it, but it made an impression on me.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby muni » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:18 am

MalaBeads wrote:
.. gratitude and some perspective. If we have just those two things thats a lot.


Gratitude! Like you say.... makes it able to recieve guidance! Otherways its just senseless water gliding from my samsara protecting umbrella.

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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Michael_Dorfman » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:41 am

smcj wrote:I read where one of his students said, "He did both more harm and more good than any ten men I know."

I can't remember where I read it or who said it, but it made an impression on me.


Rick Fields (author of *How the Swans Came to the Lake") wrote in a poem published after CTR's death:

You caused more trouble
And did more good
Than anyone I'll ever know.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby udawa » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:56 am

smcj wrote:
There has to be a reasonable place where we can both acknowledge that he engaged in some terrible behavior, but was also a brilliant teacher with some real insights. indeed, i read plenty of people who interacted with him who say just that.

I read where one of his students said, "He did both more harm and more good than any ten men I know."

I can't remember where I read it or who said it, but it made an impression on me.


It's part of a rather lovely poem by the late Rick Fields. Interestingly what he wrote is slightly, but very significantly, different to the quote as given several times in this (and similar) threads. My itallics.

CTR, April 4, 1987
for Chogyam Trungpa, Rinpoche
April rain,
Cold April rain.
Tibetan fog horns thunder
in Halifax harbor.
The Buddha said,
The Buddha says,
"Everything that's put together
Falls apart."
You caused more trouble
And did more good
Than anyone I'll ever know.

And now you've gone across
And left us holding
The diamond space of your heart
In our folded hands.
-- Rick Fields
from "frak You, Cancer"

http://chronicleproject.com/chroniclesr ... _2009.html
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:42 pm

Thank you for this Pome.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby illusionsgame » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:03 pm

Wow, I guess all of the Karmapas must be wrong to consider Lord Virupa's use of vast amounts of alcohol and sex with many women as a teaching. They must not have met you! I fell so important just to write to you. YOU are sooooooooo special.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Bhusuku » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:34 pm

illusionsgame wrote:Wow, I guess all of the Karmapas must be wrong to consider Lord Virupa's use of vast amounts of alcohol and sex with many women as a teaching. They must not have met you! I fell so important just to write to you. YOU are sooooooooo special.


hey illusionsgame... I don't care very much about Trungpa as a person, nor am I very much inclined to participate in all this "Trungpa talk"... but I like your name -- it says it all: everything in this vast place called samsara is maya, and everything is lila... what's a teaching for someone is a curse for another one (and sometimes it's both at the same time)... in the end, it's only about where you are right now in this very moment: do you see the flap of the wings of a fly as a teaching, does it disturb you, or do you -to quote Jim Morrison- just take it as it comes?

...sorry for interrupting this "interesting" discussion about the legacy of a dead man... just felt inspired to add my 2 cents... and now I dive down the :toilet:
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby smcj » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:02 pm

This will give the Shambhala people the willies. I got it by clinking on another DW thread called, "The Highest Maha Ati Teachings - Rigdzin Shikpo (Hookam)". It is in the context of letters exchanged between Shenpen Hookam and somebody named Walter.

Dear Shenpen,

I know that Rinpoche often expressed appreciation for Meister Eckhart -- but I don't remember his mentioning Krishnamurti. [Would anyone else like to chime in here? What books did Rinpoche recommended to you?]

Walter
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:25 pm

smcj wrote:This will give the Shambhala people the willies. I got it by clinking on another DW thread called, "The Highest Maha Ati Teachings - Rigdzin Shikpo (Hookam)". It is in the context of letters exchanged between Shenpen Hookam and somebody named Walter.

Dear Shenpen,

I know that Rinpoche often expressed appreciation for Meister Eckhart -- but I don't remember his mentioning Krishnamurti. [Would anyone else like to chime in here? What books did Rinpoche recommended to you?]

Walter

Why would that give anyone the willies? Here's a passage from "Lion's Roar":
We might think, “I’m very smart, extraordinarily smart. I’ve read all the books on Buddhism, about the twelve nidanas and about everything else. I have the answers. I’ve read about tantra. I’ve read about Naropa and Milarepa. I’ve read Meister Eckhart, the medieval mystic who talks about beautiful things. And I’ve even read about Don Juan, who says wonderful things about the nature of reality. I’ve read Krishnamurti, who is very sensible. I’m hopeful, obviously. There’s got to be a way out somewhere. There must be something. Things can’t be all that gray and hopeless.”
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