More Trungpa talk

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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Konchog1 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:39 am

Nilasarasvati wrote:But neither does outrageous behavior mean some one is a depraved, meaningless, wayward Guru.
Oh, of course.
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Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Ramon1920 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:08 am

The most prominent teaching spread by Trungpa was a warped notion of crazy wisdom.

Countless Westerners read a little of his writing and became self proclaimed Buddhist masters and some still live to harass practitioners with their mistaken and disrespectful advice.

Trungpa's own organization was faulty, overwhelmed by drugs and abuse. Take Thomas Rich for example. He knowingly passed on HIV to many(homicide) so he could have sex with them, he insisted students cut off ties with other teachers, many accusations of rape assisted by guards. Shameless, shameless, shameless, and this kind of shamelessness was held up as admirable and acceptable.

Let's stop playing this game where anyone that calls themselves guru is not put in their place for doing harm. This game is why Vajrayana has had so many set backs, why most Vajrayana practitioners don't live up to their vows, and why most lamas don't even bother giving proper transmissions in America.

From the standpoint of the lineages and monasteries, Trungpa was a worst case scenario. The only reason people in the West are not hearing every legit lama today shout it through a loud speaker is because Tibetans have a custom of not speaking bad about other Buddhists because they know it turns into a mud slinging contest that makes them all look bad.

I've given up my birth religion and at one time, after reading terrible stories of lamas that supposedly very attained committing atrocities left and right, I considered giving up on the prospective of Vajrayana practice and regarding it as a perversion of Buddhism. I did not, and the reason I did not is because my teacher made it very clear that I did not have to accept those teachers, that Buddha's do not act in that way, and his conduct reassured me that Vajrayana practice does produce upstanding people.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby smcj » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:00 am

Stewart wrote:
smcj wrote:
Does that edition mention that Trungpa was disinvested of his role as Kagyu lineage-holder for some ten years by the Karmapa himself, not by Akong Rinpoche personally?

I was around from '76 on at a Karmapa center. I never heard of such a thing. And Akong didn't have the authority to 'disinvest' anybody of anything.


Maybe it would be a good idea, if not plain courtesy, to speak a bit more respectfully of Akong Rinpoche, who is a pure and well repected lineage holder.

Sorry, didn't mean to dis your teacher. I've never met the man, but I've only heard good things about him. As a matter of history however, he did not have any authority or jurisdiction over Trungpa R.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Stewart » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:31 am

It's cool, sorry if I over reacted, I've just heard so many people, who in all likelihood haven't met Akong Rinpoche, say some terrible and insulting things about him and one of my other teachers, Situ Rinpoche... All in the name of some misguided loyalty to a crazy Danish guy (who I'm convinced organisation will go to pieces when he passes) or some mythical ideal that Trungpa R (whose organisation did go to pieces when he died, and still is) was hard done by... In reality his close friends were trying to curb his increasingly out of control behaviour.

Yes Akong Rinpoche couldn't and wouldn't 'deinvest' Trungpa R, no Kagyu Lama could, other than Karmapa... Even then Karmapa and Dilgo Khyentse R were clear in their opinion ... Trungpa R was a Terton and lineage holder... He may have been 'reprimanded' but he was well thought of.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Lingpupa » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:41 am

dzogchungpa wrote:You can read a little more about the situation ... Here's an especially amusing passage:
...
“Hold on a minute.” He put his hand over the mouthpiece of the telephone, and he turned to me and said, “Excuse me, Sweetheart, but what’s your name?”

He actually had forgotten my name! Rinpoche lived his life without the conventional reference points that most of us cling to as the signposts or landmarks of our sanity. I don’t know if you can possibly imagine what I felt at this moment. It wasn’t that he didn’t care about me or that fundamentally he didn’t know who I was...


I suppose that, as a child, we can forgive her for this reaction - a triumph of rationalization! I wonder what would have happened if she'd reacted like many women would: a slap to the face that he'd remember for ever would hardly have been out of place.

On another point, I'm not sure if I might have misunderstood, but I meant no disrespect to Akong Rinpoche at all. Perhaps nobody thought I did. All I meant to stress was that Trungpa's disinvestment was not Akong's doing.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby heart » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:45 am

Lingpupa wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:You can read a little more about the situation ... Here's an especially amusing passage:
...
“Hold on a minute.” He put his hand over the mouthpiece of the telephone, and he turned to me and said, “Excuse me, Sweetheart, but what’s your name?”

He actually had forgotten my name! Rinpoche lived his life without the conventional reference points that most of us cling to as the signposts or landmarks of our sanity. I don’t know if you can possibly imagine what I felt at this moment. It wasn’t that he didn’t care about me or that fundamentally he didn’t know who I was...


I suppose that, as a child, we can forgive her for this reaction - a triumph of rationalization! I wonder what would have happened if she'd reacted like many women would: a slap to the face that he'd remember for ever would hardly have been out of place.


Well according to Tenzin Palmo's "A Cave in the snow" when Trungpa Rinpoche tried to feel her up under the table during an interview she put the heel of her stiletto with full power in his foot. He just laughed. This was more or less the same time as the “Excuse me, Sweetheart, but what’s your name?” incident if I understand correctly.

/magnus
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:11 pm

Lingpupa wrote:I suppose that, as a child, we can forgive her for this reaction - a triumph of rationalization! I wonder what would have happened if she'd reacted like many women would: a slap to the face that he'd remember for ever would hardly have been out of place.

Yes, it really is too bad she wasn't mature enough to slap him in the face. I suppose that, as an adult, she can forgive you for your reaction - a triumph of narrow-mindedness!
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:25 pm

Ramon1920 wrote:The most prominent teaching spread by Trungpa was a warped notion of crazy wisdom.

This is a ridiculous statement.

Ramon1920 wrote:Countless Westerners read a little of his writing and became self proclaimed Buddhist masters and some still live to harass practitioners with their mistaken and disrespectful advice.

Countless? Name one.

Ramon1920 wrote:Trungpa's own organization was faulty, overwhelmed by drugs and abuse.

Faulty, certainly. Overwhelmed by drugs and abuse? Really? Wow.

Ramon1920 wrote:Take Thomas Rich for example...

Rich disgraced himself, and if he raped people then he was a criminal, but I'm not quite sure that Trungpa is entirely to blame for that.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:39 pm

I would alot more open to these critical views of Trungpa if 90% of them weren't written in such shrill, preachy overtones. Seriously, if you wanna convince someone that they shouldn't listen to Trungpa, that is not the way to go about doing it.
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is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby smcj » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:08 pm

All I meant to stress was that Trungpa's disinvestment was not Akong's doing.

What makes you think that Trungpa was "disinvested", whatever that means?
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:46 pm

Ramon1920 wrote:The only reason people in the West are not hearing every legit lama today shout it through a loud speaker is because Tibetans have a custom of not speaking bad about other Buddhists because they know it turns into a mud slinging contest that makes them all look bad.

By the way, here are some examples of what some fairly legit lamas have said about Trungpa:

http://chronicleproject.com/tributes/39.html
http://chronicleproject.com/tributes/55.html
http://chronicleproject.com/tributes/41.html
http://chronicleproject.com/tributes/6.html
http://chronicleproject.com/tributes/5.html

I have to say, these Tibetans are really tricky.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Karma Dorje » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:57 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I would alot more open to these critical views of Trungpa if 90% of them weren't written in such shrill, preachy overtones. Seriously, if you wanna convince someone that they shouldn't listen to Trungpa, that is not the way to go about doing it.


I totally agree. Whenever I read threads like this with someone going off on Trungpa with lots of accusations and nothing (not even names) to substantiate it, I hear the voice of Church Lady in my head:

"Crazy wisdom? Well isn't that special? What is it Mr. Lama, are you crazy or are you wise?"

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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby MalaBeads » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:15 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:I have to say, these Tibetans are really tricky.


Indeed, they are.

Could it be because the ego-clinging mind is tricky as well?

Shakymuni Buddha saw through all the strategies of this non-existent ego-clinging that we as humans persist in maintaining.

And lucky for us, this insight, these insights, have been preserved.

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche had an incredibly difficult job to plow the hard soil of stubborn American ego-clinging. Given these circumstances, he did an incredible job in my estimation. Did he plant and then harvest the perfect crop? No. The sangha soil needed to be worked and reworked for a long time to become fertile. Of course, certain individuals succeeded. Others reaped their own karma, reaped what they sowed.

The thing about Trungpa was he had faith in Dharma, in the teachings, and in what he was attempting to do. He had his own karma, his own circumstances to work out as well.

It was a tough job but somebody had to do it.

As Westerners we should have gratitude and some perspective. If we have just those two things thats a lot.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Knotty Veneer » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:12 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:I would alot more open to these critical views of Trungpa if 90% of them weren't written in such shrill, preachy overtones. Seriously, if you wanna convince someone that they shouldn't listen to Trungpa, that is not the way to go about doing it.


I think there are shrill voices on both sides of this. I don't think Trungpa was evil but he was flawed. At one time, to suggest that Trungpa was anything other than godlike would bring down fierce opprobium from former members of his group. I think you should read Trungpa but bear in mind that the stuff put out by Shambhala is the official version and that there are other opinions. The truth lies no doubt somewhere in between.

As regards his relationship with Akong Rinpoche, I think Stewart has it right. And I have noticed over the years participating in internet forums that there seems to be/have been a narrative within Trungpa's organization that suggests Trungpa was either driven out of Samye Ling by tight-arsed politics or felt that Britain was not the place where his particular mission to the West could reach fruition because the British were not able to appreciate his revolutionary take on the Dharma and preferred to settle for a more fusty traditionalism.

I think this is nonsense and really another example of American exceptionalism. Just as the Pilgrim Fathers were driven to found the greatness nation on Earth through persecution and and the fulfilling of a divine plan, so Trungpa's arrival in the US replays the same founding narrative. In a sense Shambhala's nearest analogue is the Church of Latter Day Saints. Just as the Mormons created a truly American version of Christianity, Shambhala seems to be working towards creating an indigenous American form of Tantric Buddhism.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:38 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:I would alot more open to these critical views of Trungpa if 90% of them weren't written in such shrill, preachy overtones. Seriously, if you wanna convince someone that they shouldn't listen to Trungpa, that is not the way to go about doing it.


I think there are shrill voices on both sides of this. I don't think Trungpa was evil but he was flawed. At one time, to suggest that Trungpa was anything other than godlike would bring down fierce opprobium from former members of his group. I think you should read Trungpa but bear in mind that the stuff put out by Shambhala is the official version and that there are other opinions. The truth lies no doubt somewhere in between.


Actually, If you subscribe to the Madhyamika, the truth lies neither in the extremes, nor between, nor in neither. That's why, ultimately, not only Trungpa Rinpoche but everybody is beyond value judgement :?

That's why we have to be spacious enough to observe both good and bad judgements of Trungpa Rinpoche and realize they're both delusional. And if we subscribe to the Vajrayana and have samaya with the innumerable teachers who revere him, we have to attempt to perceive his activities as a nondual display of wisdom phenomena.

Not to say that I can do that. In my opinion he's still "truly existing" and "good". I'm just saying we should all aspire to surpass accepting or rejecting him.





And if you want to take this argument and use it on teachers who are universally seen as lunatics, conmen, and charlatans...all I can say is: relative beings like us need to dualistically reject unsafe masters. Totally necessary. The only litmus test we have, is other lineage masters. They are our taste-testers. If H.H. Dilgo Khyentse thinks he's safe to eat, he's safe to eat. It may be painful, it may be ugly, but it's gonna bring you to enlightenment.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby smcj » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:00 pm

Just a random thought; the final and true arbiter of a person's virtue or vice is--what else--their karma! CTR's new incarnation doesn't seem to be feeling any harmful effects from his previous life, at least not yet.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby Nilasarasvati » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:10 pm

Well...we don't really know that. I mean I like the argument, but it presupposes too much.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:16 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:I think this is nonsense and really another example of American exceptionalism. Just as the Pilgrim Fathers were driven to found the greatness nation on Earth through persecution and and the fulfilling of a divine plan, so Trungpa's arrival in the US replays the same founding narrative. In a sense Shambhala's nearest analogue is the Church of Latter Day Saints. Just as the Mormons created a truly American version of Christianity, Shambhala seems to be working towards creating an indigenous American form of Tantric Buddhism.

Halifax seems like an odd choice then.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby smcj » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:50 pm

Nilasarasvati wrote:Well...we don't really know that. I mean I like the argument, but it presupposes too much.


He has been reborn in Tibet, right? Safely away from all the American craziness. His protectors must have snagged him in the bardo.
Last edited by smcj on Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More Trungpa talk

Postby anjali » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:51 pm

smcj wrote:Just a random thought; the final and true arbiter of a person's virtue or vice is--what else--their karma! CTR's new incarnation doesn't seem to be feeling any harmful effects from his previous life, at least not yet.

Whatever seeds CTR sowed are just waiting for the right time (causes and conditions) to sprout--may be this life, may be some other. That's the thing about latent negative karma--you don't know when it's going to bite you in the rear. Unless of course you believe that karma can be eliminated (through Vajrasattva or other practices that "roast" karmic seeds) before experiencing it.
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  • All activities are like the games children play. If started, they can never be finished. They are only completed once you let them be, like castles made of sand. --Khenpo Nyoshul Rinpoche
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