Dharma Wheel

Hi,
Is it accurate to say that Six Yogas of Naropa are only taught in a retreat setting? Also, to get to the advanced level of being ready to be taught the Six Yogas, I take it you have to finish Ngondro? Are you ready then?

In general yes & yes.

mzaur wrote:Hi,
Is it accurate to say that Six Yogas of Naropa are only taught in a retreat setting? Also, to get to the advanced level of being ready to be taught the Six Yogas, I take it you have to finish Ngondro? Are you ready then?

Ngondro, Yidam and six yogas are the path of means

Shine, Lhaktong, Pointing-out and Mahamudra is the path of liberation.

There is no way to know exactly how your teacher will teach these nor in what order or combination. The path of a disciple is very uncertain.

/magnus

Oh I see. I didn't know mahamudra was taught before doing ngondro and generation/completion. Is it possible to ask a lama for path of liberation guidance?

mzaur wrote:Hi,
Is it accurate to say that Six Yogas of Naropa are only taught in a retreat setting? Also, to get to the advanced level of being ready to be taught the Six Yogas, I take it you have to finish Ngondro? Are you ready then?

Phowa is frequently taught with no Ngondro prerequisite. You can also find public teachings (with no prerequisite) on dream yoga, and less commonly, tummo.

mzaur wrote:Oh I see. I didn't know mahamudra was taught before doing ngondro and generation/completion. Is it possible to ask a lama for path of liberation guidance?

I didn't say that mahamudra was taught before Ngondro but it could be like that. Mingyur Rinpoche for example is giving pointing-out to people starting Ngondro. A friend told me Trungpa Rinpoche did the same. Many Kagyu teachers seem to wait until the disciple finished Ngondro and some even until they have some experience of Yidam practice.

/magnus

mzaur wrote:Hi,
Is it accurate to say that Six Yogas of Naropa are only taught in a retreat setting? Also, to get to the advanced level of being ready to be taught the Six Yogas, I take it you have to finish Ngondro? Are you ready then?

No, some teachers will give them outside retreat, or during short term retreat. Certainly some of them are easier to get, like phowa, as already mentioned.

No, not every teacher requires you to finish the ngondro. However, this is a very common minimum. Certainly if you would be practicing all six of them intensively. Doing one of them a bit might, again, require less.

No, you're not ready after ngondro Or, you could be, but you don't know. You're ready when your teacher thinks you're ready. And usually, people do quite a bit of yidam practice, before going into completion stage practices.

Oh by the way, I used to believe that 'the six yogas' are always together, and are taught as a complete bundle. Indeed it can sometimes be like that. However, I found it's much more common to get some of them separately, often in the context of other practices.

All the best,
Kelwin

P.S. Aspiring to do advanced practices can be a useful motivation for practice, as long as your motivation is pure. May you quickly achieve realisation!

The Six Yogas of Naropa, or Naro Chodruk, are specific and detailed Completion Stage instructions that originated from various Tantras, and various masters, and which were bundled together and have since been transmitted as the core of the Kagyu Path of Means. They are almost always given in strict retreat setting, though there may be some exceptions, these exceptions are very rare. (Tulkus get them......as for the rest of us, well.......bits and pieces, perhaps....outside of retreat)

In general, these practices "rely" to an extent on prior experience in the Creation Stage of deity yoga, or what you would call Yidam practice. In particular, the practice(s) of Vajrayogini, and often Chakrasamvara, precede these practices.

However, Yidam practices actually have their own completion stage practices, as well.....so things like "Tummo." "Illusory Body," and "Dream Yoga" can be, and often are, taught as Completion Stage practices on their own, outside of strict retreat, and perhaps even not in conjunction with Creation Stage practices. But these practices may not be the same as those found in the Naro Chodruk.

There are actually quite a few "Phowa" practices, just for starters...the "Phowa" of the Naro Chodruk is not the same as those which are commonly taught outside of a three year retreat, for instance.

Some may disagree with me, but, frankly speaking, the Naro Chodruk is a demanding set of methods, requiring isolation, a retreat setting, minimization of distractions, and great determination, as well as adequate preparation. It's not something one does for an hour, before heading off to the office in the morning, really.....for most of us, at least.

The Path of Liberation, or the Path of Mahamudra, complements the Path of Means, but it is often taught separately, and almost always gradually, outside of strict retreat. The common "Karma Kagyu Ngondro" is actually part of that path--it's not really part of the Path of Means, which has it's own ngondro.

In my experience, Mahamudra Ngondro is the quintessential method of accumulating merit, and, with the proper guidance and instructions, it can also be the setting for proper accumulation of wisdom--in fact, the quintessence of ngondro, really, is Guru Yoga, which is the essential method of developing wisdom.

Thanks Cone, indeed it is important to emphasize the difference between the six yogas as taught more publicly, and the way it's done in strict retreat.
I know a bunch of people doing it in retreat in the Dordogne, but have only practiced the 'easy-access' versions myself.

Could you please elaborate on the differences between the Naro Chodruk practices, and let's say the dream/sleep practices found in relation to other yidam practices, the more common Longchen Nyintig phowa, the tummo as part of many sadhanas, etc? As far as publicly possible, obviously.

All the best,
Kelwin

heart wrote:

mzaur wrote:Oh I see. I didn't know mahamudra was taught before doing ngondro and generation/completion. Is it possible to ask a lama for path of liberation guidance?

I didn't say that mahamudra was taught before Ngondro but it could be like that. Mingyur Rinpoche for example is giving pointing-out to people starting Ngondro.

That's interesting, I guess he changed his mind.

Kelwin wrote:Could you please elaborate on the differences between the Naro Chodruk practices, and let's say the dream/sleep practices found in relation to other yidam practices, the more common Longchen Nyintig phowa, the tummo as part of many sadhanas, etc? As far as publicly possible, obviously.

Even if I could, I wouldn't. I will only say that there are similarities, in general, in all sorts of Phowas, in all sorts of Tummo,, etc....but it's not merely the instructions and techniques--it's also the blessing of the lineages, and the maintenance of samaya. Which is why......see the beginning of this paragraph.

conebeckham wrote:

Kelwin wrote:Could you please elaborate on the differences between the Naro Chodruk practices, and let's say the dream/sleep practices found in relation to other yidam practices, the more common Longchen Nyintig phowa, the tummo as part of many sadhanas, etc? As far as publicly possible, obviously.

Even if I could, I wouldn't. I will only say that there are similarities, in general, in all sorts of Phowas, in all sorts of Tummo,, etc....but it's not merely the instructions and techniques--it's also the blessing of the lineages, and the maintenance of samaya. Which is why......see the beginning of this paragraph.

I would of course never ask you or anyone to discuss actual details of practice. In fact, I can only rejoice in your purity!

Pero wrote:

heart wrote:

mzaur wrote:Oh I see. I didn't know mahamudra was taught before doing ngondro and generation/completion. Is it possible to ask a lama for path of liberation guidance?

I didn't say that mahamudra was taught before Ngondro but it could be like that. Mingyur Rinpoche for example is giving pointing-out to people starting Ngondro.

That's interesting, I guess he changed his mind.

How come "changed his mind" ?

I did his "Path of Liberation 1" - Laying a Foundation for the Buddhist Path – The Nature of Mind and Preliminary Practices (part I) . It was "lung" for Ngondro, Vajrasattva empowerment and we did prostrations together but the main time was spent on teachings on the nature of mind and a number of pointing-out instructions in both Dzogchen style and more Mahamudra style. Magic stuff.

/magnus

heart wrote:

Pero wrote:

heart wrote: I didn't say that mahamudra was taught before Ngondro but it could be like that. Mingyur Rinpoche for example is giving pointing-out to people starting Ngondro.

That's interesting, I guess he changed his mind.

How come "changed his mind" ?

I did his "Path of Liberation 1" - Laying a Foundation for the Buddhist Path – The Nature of Mind and Preliminary Practices (part I) . It was "lung" for Ngondro, Vajrasattva empowerment and we did prostrations together but the main time was spent on teachings on the nature of mind and a number of pointing-out instructions in both Dzogchen style and more Mahamudra style. Magic stuff.

/magnus

Yes I think that was the new or perhaps other program. The one I attended was Mahamudra Level 1 and it was only shine and prostrations. And Green Tara empowerment but not sure if that was part of the program. I think the program you mention was started a little later. Anyway, "changed his mind" because at that time he told me he doesn't give pointing out at the beginning because many people get confused, like thinking every religion is the same or that everything is one, so he prefers to give it when people have some foundation (in that program it was at level 3).

Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoché gives straightaway pointing out instruction ... this is because of the recommandation of his master Khenpo Gangshar.

Sönam

Pero wrote: at that time he told me he doesn't give pointing out at the beginning because many people get confused, like thinking every religion is the same or that everything is one, so he prefers to give it when people have some foundation (in that program it was at level 3).

Well he may be right.. I do know of at least one regular devoted student of ChNN who is pretty much a Hindu and thinks this way. . .

Adamantine wrote:

Pero wrote: at that time he told me he doesn't give pointing out at the beginning because many people get confused, like thinking every religion is the same or that everything is one, so he prefers to give it when people have some foundation (in that program it was at level 3).

Well he may be right.. I do know of at least one regular devoted student of ChNN who is pretty much a Hindu and thinks this way. . .

This is because ChNN opened is door to many, including catholics and so on ... I know even hinayana practitioners (many of us may know) which are devoted to him/Dzogchen teachings.

Adamantine wrote:

Pero wrote: at that time he told me he doesn't give pointing out at the beginning because many people get confused, like thinking every religion is the same or that everything is one, so he prefers to give it when people have some foundation (in that program it was at level 3).

Well he may be right.. I do know of at least one regular devoted student of ChNN who is pretty much a Hindu and thinks this way. . .

I met people like this too but I see merit in both ways and don't consider one to be wrong and the other right. For example when I started if I hadn't received everything from the beginning but would have to do Ngondro first I probably would not follow the teachings.

Pero wrote:

Adamantine wrote:

Pero wrote: at that time he told me he doesn't give pointing out at the beginning because many people get confused, like thinking every religion is the same or that everything is one, so he prefers to give it when people have some foundation (in that program it was at level 3).

Well he may be right.. I do know of at least one regular devoted student of ChNN who is pretty much a Hindu and thinks this way. . .

I met people like this too but I see merit in both ways and don't consider one to be wrong and the other right. For example when I started if I hadn't received everything from the beginning but would have to do Ngondro first I probably would not follow the teachings.

Oh, but I think you would.

/magnus

Adamantine wrote:

Pero wrote: at that time he told me he doesn't give pointing out at the beginning because many people get confused, like thinking every religion is the same or that everything is one, so he prefers to give it when people have some foundation (in that program it was at level 3).

Well he may be right.. I do know of at least one regular devoted student of ChNN who is pretty much a Hindu and thinks this way. . .

Hell I know devoted students of HHDL that are for all intents and purposes Hindus. Naropa had many Hindu disciples. Sometimes, religion does not matter than much when it comes to Guru devotion.

N