Dharma Wheel

It's a very good reading and I'm certain you will benefit a lot from it.
I'm sorry if this thread derailed a bit, but keep us posted if you want. I surely would like it.
It's always an inspiration seeing someone dealing with actual practice and its challenges.

Best wishes!

lisehull wrote:I would like to thank everyone who responded to my inquiries about doing the practice. I have a lot to consider and to get on with! I am reading Torch of Certainty and Foundations of Tibetan Buddhism (Kalu Rinpoche) as well. These were recommended by my teacher and seem to be quite useful.

This is the same text I relied on 22 years ago. Many Kagyu Lama's also use the "Word's of my perfect teacher" when teaching the four mind-turnings since it is so detailed. It is an important text for all to read Kagyu or Nyingma.

/magnus

WOMPT is a great text, it also couldn't hurt to pick up A Cascasding Waterfall of Nectar by Thinley Norbu even though it is a commentary on the short Dudjom tersar ngondro it is applicable to all ngondros and is quite inspiring. There's also a much different flavor of commentary by Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche which can be requested through his website, also really helpful. Certainly spending more time in study and contemplation of texts like the ones you already have and these others will only benefit you and help bring the mind deeper into the practice.

Khenpo Karthar Rinpoche also gave a teaching a long time ago at KTD as a commentary on the standard Karma Kagyu ngöndro, which I believe is still available as a text via their bookstore. It's quite useful if that's the one you're doing.

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Regards,
rt

LastLegend wrote:

muni wrote:Guru is crushing the root of all attachments.

True but do we practice like a guru?

Coarse minds' fabrication is like hands having a doll with thought-wires, enslaved by the movements and let dance that doll in prefered directions of attachments/aversion.

The genuine master sees clearly the buddhas' words in the different expressions of the many teachings.

He/she clarifies the student is just like him-her and so possesing no any truths to which a kind of clinging is possible.

muni wrote:

LastLegend wrote:

muni wrote:Guru is crushing the root of all attachments.

True but do we practice like a guru?

Coarse minds' fabrication is like hands having a doll with thought-wires, enslaved by the movements and let dance that doll in prefered directions of attachments/aversion.

The genuine master sees clearly the buddhas' words in the different expressions of the many teachings.

He/she clarifies the student is just like him-her and so possesing no any truths to which a kind of clinging is possible.

So are you free from clinging?

Scratching an itch.

"There is some pleasure to be had by scratching an itch
But it is even more pleasurable to have no itches at all..
Nagarjuna

The scratch: All those clinging put one finger up.

Back to Ngondro. This is not concerning Lisehull her practice.

Namdrol wrote:

gregkavarnos wrote:]Don't forget that you are in the Kagyu forum Dechen and that each tradition has its own "version" and approach to ngondro and that they are not really interchangable.

The real meaning of "ngondro" is Guru yoga. First it is guru yoga to a guru in front of you; then on top of your head; then in front you to whom you make offerings; then in front of you from whom you receive empworments.

As long as it is understood that ngondro is guru yoga in the beginning, in the middle, and in the end, then this should remove obstacles to practice.

There is no practice more profound than Guru Yoga, it is the defining practice of Vajrayāna which is not present in Mahayāna or lower tantras.

N

I think this really needs to be emphasized.

Prostrations are guru yoga. Vajrasattva practice is guru yoga. Mandala practice is guru yoga. Guru yoga is guru yoga.

Although I'm pretty sure in the standard Karma Kagyu ngöndro, the Guru is above your head in guru yoga, not in front of you.

Namdrol wrote:

gregkavarnos wrote:]Don't forget that you are in the Kagyu forum Dechen and that each tradition has its own "version" and approach to ngondro and that they are not really interchangable.

The real meaning of "ngondro" is Guru yoga. First it is guru yoga to a guru in front of you; then on top of your head; then in front you to whom you make offerings; then in front of you from whom you receive empworments.

As long as it is understood that ngondro is guru yoga in the beginning, in the middle, and in the end, then this should remove obstacles to practice.

There is no practice more profound than Guru Yoga, it is the defining practice of Vajrayāna which is not present in Mahayāna or lower tantras.

N

Emaho!

/magnus

I ain't arguing with dat!

Also, the Lotsawa House translation website has some excellent commentaries on Ngondro available for free: Lisehull and everyone else should check em out!

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/ngondro.html

Adamantine wrote:Also, the Lotsawa House translation website has some excellent commentaries on Ngondro available for free: Lisehull and everyone else should check em out!

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/ngondro.html

Thanks for the link!

lisehull wrote:

Adamantine wrote:Also, the Lotsawa House translation website has some excellent commentaries on Ngondro available for free: Lisehull and everyone else should check em out!

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/ngondro.html

Thanks for the link!

Was just browsing the Kagyu sub-forum here and saw this thread, so I wanted to stop by real quick and wish you well with your practice, Lise. May the connection blossom immediately and spontaneously!

Thank you!

I know ngondro can be difficult, but keep on going! It is very rewarding, I hope that everything goes well for you, and that you get past your difficulties, enjoy the blessings of the lineage!

For the benefit of all sentient beings

we're soo lucky to have precious human rebirth and be able to practice

karmapa chenno

Sonam Wangchug wrote:I know ngondro can be difficult, but keep on going! It is very rewarding, I hope that everything goes well for you, and that you get past your difficulties, enjoy the blessings of the lineage!

For the benefit of all sentient beings

we're soo lucky to have precious human rebirth and be able to practice

karmapa chenno

It's always good to hear encouraging words even if they aren't directed to you.

I started my Ngondro early this year. For reasons I won't go into, I laid off of the practice for about 6 weeks. I started up again this week. It wasn't easy getting back to it, but I'm glad I did - it's a wonderful practice.

I adopted a simple rule for all my practices - I do not practice anything unless I understand 3 things:

1. The objective - what is it for exactly, how does it advance me on the path, why I can't avoid it.
Outer, Inner, Secret, Innermost Secret Objective.

2. The method - how it works and why this method better than the other method.
Outer, Inner, Secret, Innermost Secret Practice.

3. The sign of accomplishment - all practices have clear signs of accomplishment (if the teacher did not tell you, it does not mean it does not exist - keep looking).
Outer, Inner, Secret, Innermost Secret Signs.

Everything is in 4s.

In Ngondro, all practices have clear purpose, method and result - as usually Outer, Inner, Secret, Innermost Secret Objective.
Every step has a clear sign - Outer, Inner, Secret, Innermost Secret Sign. A lot of teachers do not know (it maybe surprising) - for them it became part of the tradition - my teacher told me so.

In essence, the method does not care if you accumulate 100,000 or 500,000. You have to get a sign.
For example, Kalachakra tantra talks about some sings for preliminaries.

But keep looking, it is out there - all you have to do is to find a teacher who will explain you these things. Once you understand these things, you get really motivated and proceed fast, almost 24/7. It comes naturally because the understanding, clear definition of the method and the outcome keeps you focused.


"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." - Buddha

HI there!
I know there hasn't been anything posted in a while on this topic. I just want to say to the original poster I can completely relate to what you are saying. I have stopped and started many times but have always been drawn back to it. The purpose of the prostration practice is to purify arrogance and pride. The fact you are experiencing boredom is not a surprise! It is the ego going I have no need for this practice, things are fine the way they are. This is a very healthy and indeed a very good thing, it is showing you the obstacles that you are trying to clear through the practice.
However I have also read in the foreword of the 'Torch of Certainty' that sometimes disturbances can be related to a not enough practice of placement meditation, this is what happened to be true in my case. I do not know how much placement meditation experience you have but what I have found helpful is to do a meditation session of 20 minutes before begining the practice proper to quieten the mind.
You also say that you sometimes stumble over the words when doing the Refuge Prayer combined with the prostrations, that is ok too it is all new. What I found helpful was to write the prayer in large letters on a piece of card or paper and stick it on the wall during the practice in front of me and also to recite the prayer to myself throughout the day.
I am also very lucky to have contact with Ken Holmes at Samye Ling Monastery, he advised me to do the prostrations VERY slowly at first and that combining the visualisation, prostrations and prayers just takes time. He also told me that most of the people he knows who have finished regret finishing too quickly!!
I also want to ask how do you do the practice itself? I only do 25 prostrations per day and I also fill a bowl of 25 marbles to count on the floor, so I can just forget about the counting and focus on the prostrations and prayer.
You say that you don't find the ngondro as inspiring as your other practices, if you have time why not do a practice that inspires you before hand? I also read a quote from a lama who said that the ngondro preliminaries are more important than the other advanced practices themselves, because they are the sound basis of all further study. If you would like any further advice feel free to message me.

Good luck!!

Admiral

AdmiralJim wrote:
However I have also read in the foreword of the 'Torch of Certainty' that sometimes disturbances can be related to a not enough practice of placement meditation, this is what happened to be true in my case. I do not know how much placement meditation experience you have but what I have found helpful is to do a meditation session of 20 minutes before begining the practice proper to quieten the mind.

Is 'placement meditation' an alternate way to translate 'shamatha' ? If so I am more familiar with the english term 'calm-abiding'.