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What is ill will ? - Dhamma Wheel

What is ill will ?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Freawaru
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What is ill will ?

Postby Freawaru » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:54 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:25 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

rowyourboat
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:47 pm

Hi Freewaru

I strongly believe the idea of the five hindrances being suppressed by a specific jhana factor is a fabrication of the commentarialists. You are not going to see it in real practice.

bw

RYB
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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IanAnd
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby IanAnd » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:39 pm

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

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Cittasanto
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:23 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQr_zQfW6rQ
maybe this vid will be of help to you


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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mikenz66
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:44 pm


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IanAnd
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby IanAnd » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:37 am

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

Freawaru
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Freawaru » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:33 am


PeterB
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby PeterB » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:58 am

Is it not an absence ?
An absence of metta, mudita , karuna, and so on ?
Leading to a mindset characterised by an absence of what Eric Berne called "positive regard" to life.

Freawaru
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Freawaru » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:14 am


Freawaru
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Freawaru » Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:28 am


nathan
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby nathan » Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:30 am

In response to the op I can offer some practical examples of how I observe this during insight and tranquility practices. I've found these kinds of approaches beneficial to furthering my understanding and so perhaps some of what I have observed may be useful to others as well.

When I sit or walk and meditate I usually begin with noting. Whether I am noting the naturally arising sequence of sensations or I am sweeping the body more methodically and noting sensations I am aware of both the movement and the change involved in those sensations. The natural response of the mind to all of this diversity is that the sensations which arise may either be pleasant in which case the mind often naturally gravitates towards these (aka desire) or the sensations may be neutral in which case the mind can respond with a variety of similarly neutral responses such as lethargy, boredom and confusion or the sensations may be unpleasant in which case the mind typically responds by moving quickly away (aka aversion or ill will).

After I have calmed the part of my mind that has been conventionally involved in fabricating willful thought by sufficiently attending to the sensations in my body it will become less scattered and distracted by that routine and mundane activity. When my attention is sufficiently focused I often turn my attention specifically to the sensations of my breath. I energetically apply my cleared and attentive mind to the sensations of the breath entering and exiting the body. I focus on the breath sensations until the breath sensations are all that I am aware of or as close to this as possible. Then I reapply this simple and slow and steady sensation of the breath to the whole body as if the sensation of air moving slowly in and out of the body is the only sensation that is felt in all of the body. Slowly breathing in and out while mindfully filling the entire body with the sensation of breathing is a very relaxing and pleasant exercise and the body slowly becomes filled with this relatively steady and pleasant sensation.

This is simple and natural way to move from insight practice to tranquility or concentration practice that involves bringing the mind out of it's thoughts by turning it to the body and then bringing it out of the diversity of the body into the steady simplicity of the breath. When this approach is effective, the hindrances, in the very immediate way that these appear in the body, feelings and mind, are overcome by bringing the mind to clarity and attention, then providing a steady, calm and pleasant object which can fully absorb that attention and then filling the entire body and mind with that absorption of the mind in the sensation of breathing. In this way a sensation of pleasantness fills the whole body and in this way the mind overcomes the diversity of sensations that ordinarily arise in the body.

This is how I understand concentration overcoming the hindrances, in the five aggregates, in the ongoing present of meditation practice. There are other ways that this can be done but this is one example of the kind of exercise in skillfulness that works for me in practice. The principle is always the same, a mind which is singularly attending to that which is pleasant is not subject to the unpleasantness that continually arises when there is diversity of sensations.

After a period of pleasant concentration the mind has been for a time relieved of the unpleasantness of the diversity of sensations and so it is more clear. When one returns then to attending to the body and sensations one can more clearly discern the moment to moment changes from pleasant to neutral to unpleasant and so on. Because the mind has been free of the hindrances when it was concentrated the qualities of the hindrances will become more discernible for what they are when these eventually return some time after the diversity of sensations has again gained some of it's natural momentum and the mind also begins to return to its unskillful patterns of responses. When the hindrances can be understood in terms of what it is like for them to be absent one can then discern the absence of the hindrances even when the mind is not concentrated in a pleasant absorption. A mind that is free of the hindrances but not in a concentration is useful for very skillful insight practice and will make good progress on the path of further purifying the mind and developing the understanding that leads to freedom.

This has been an attempt to describe an approach to developing skillfulness in observing the aggregates for what they are by employing insight to support concentration and concentration to support insight. The mind that is aware of the pleasantness of absorbed concentration is made more acutely aware of the contrasts that can be attended to in the three characteristics as these proceed to arise naturally as sensations in the body. The mind which has experienced the contrast between concentrated and diversified attention has this kind of direct insight into the unsatisfactory nature of diversity as opposed to the relatively steady pleasantness of a concentrated mind. Employing both qualities of attention in this kind of way the clarity of insight supports the inclination to concentration and the pleasantness and peace of concentration supports the inclination to develop more clarity of insight. In this way the practice of both insight and concentration can continue to feedback beneficially to each other in a manner that can continue all along the path for as long as one continues to practice and develop towards complete understanding and peace.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Cittasanto
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:07 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Freawaru
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Freawaru » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:27 am


nathan
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby nathan » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:41 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

Freawaru
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Freawaru » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:23 pm


nathan
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby nathan » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:12 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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cooran
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby cooran » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:10 am

Hello Nathan, all,

vyāpāda: 'ill-will', is a synonym of dosa (s. mūla); it is one of the 5 hindrances (nīvarana) and one of the 10 fetters (samyojana).
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_v.htm

Vyāpāda
Vyāpāda [fr. vyāpajjati. See also byāpāda] making bad, doing harm: desire to injure, malevolence, ill -- will D i.71, 246; iii.70 sq., 226, 234; S i.99; ii.151; iv.343; A i.194, 280; ii.14, 210; iii.92, 231, 245; iv.437; Vbh 86, 363 sq., 391; Pug 17 sq.; Dhs 1137; Vism 7; DA i.211; VbhA 74, 118, 369. ˚anusaya M i.433. ˚dosa M iii.3. ˚dhātu M iii.62. ˚nīvaraṇa M ii.203. See under each affix. -- Cp. avyāpāda.
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... li.1427689

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

nathan
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby nathan » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:04 pm

hi Cooran

The mistake is mine, I made the wrong assumption on the basis of the previous discussion and I mistook dosa as a synonym for aversion.
aversion  nibbidā (f.), virāga (m.), anālaya (m.), parammukhatā (m.), vimukhatā (m.)

I'm happy to concede that the terms are used synonymously if that is typically so. Probably the point I was trying to make is lost in the attempt to define the various pali terms used for ill will and aversion. What I was trying to point out, because it is the meditation forum, is that when you are practicing mindfulness you can develop awareness of some of the subtle differences in the way that the mind moves and changes. As an indication of a way to observe ill will in practice I was trying to point out the difference that one can observe between the minds attraction to pleasant sensation and aversion to unpleasant sensation when it is simply left to it's own devices and then what can follow from that when a more conscious and willful kind of involvement in the aversion or attraction develops.

I hoped that the observation of the one kind of process could be a means to observation of the other. The distinction I was pointing to was between the arising of a relatively unwilling aversion and a more willful involvement in an aversion. I apologize if I misused the terms. The OP was about ill will and I was hoping that I could point to a manner of observing it and some of the subtleties of it first hand. I had thought that what I was saying might be clearer if aversion could be taken in a sense to refer to a more autonomic kind of event whereas ill will could be taken in a similar sense to imply the additional involvement of a more conscious or willful quality. I'm not expert on pali definitions and I didn't take the time to look into those specifics. So if it is just definitions of terms the Op is after, then I offer my apologies for the digression into an exploration of some of what might be noted about ill will and aversion in practice.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

Aerok
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Re: What is ill will ?

Postby Aerok » Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:03 am

Vindictive


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