Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:03 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 161 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Posts: 5986
Location: Taiwan
justsit wrote:
Rinpoche suggests that since the original language of dharma is Sanskrit or Pali, and was only translated into Tibetan much later when the dharma went to that country, why not use English translation in this country?


Not really. Sanskrit might have been the standard language in India and Pali might also have been the common language of some schools, but simultaneously you had the scriptures in multiple languages across the sub-continent and Central Asia. Keep in mind in China as well you had translation of Buddhist texts starting around the first century CE. Classical Chinese is just as much an original language of dharma in my mind.

On the same token, plenty of Theravada people recite Pali and don't necessarily know Pali either.

It seems common to recite a text in the source language (never mind proper pronunciation) and then just say the English translation. Sounds kinda odd -- sing this lovely line of Tibetan and then just say in a normal soft voice, "And may all sentient beings without exception......"

_________________
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) Dharma Depository (Site)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:01 am 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 4612
Location: Baltimore, MD
heart wrote:
Pero wrote:
What I don''t understand whenever this discussion comes up is, what exactly is this infamous cultural baggage considered to be? :shrug:


Good question, seems to be mainly directed against Vajrayana. You hear very little about the cultural baggage from the Zen tradition. Could it be a question of interior design?


Well in the Zen tradition there was indeed quite a bit of talk about cultural trappings and it seems that it still comes up. Personally I have always thought that this concern drops away after a few seshins.

Kirt

_________________
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:07 am 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 4612
Location: Baltimore, MD
Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:
Pero wrote:
What I don''t understand whenever this discussion comes up is, what exactly is this infamous cultural baggage considered to be? :shrug:


Good question, seems to be mainly directed against Vajrayana. You hear very little about the cultural baggage from the Zen tradition. Could it be a question of interior design?

/magnus


I guess it deals with our popular streotypes and scepticism but also with our unbiased willingnes to pick up the new challenges. Seems to me, tibetan masters very like to give Mahamudra and Dzogchen teachings to westerners, more than to tibetans? But we hardly have the result. Maybe we are somehow predisposited.


Well we have to REALLY develop the intention to attain some kind of awakening and not just play around with superficialities in our life. Once that happens the fruit will blossom. But we may also be living in the last century of true Buddhist tantra (at least Highest Yoga Tantra) at least openly. So like a candle dying the great masters may be trying to spread seeds that are mostly hoped to bear fruit in future lives.

Kirt

_________________
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:57 am 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 4612
Location: Baltimore, MD
justsit wrote:
Rinpoche suggests that since the original language of dharma is Sanskrit or Pali, and was only translated into Tibetan much later when the dharma went to that country, why not use English translation in this country?


Of course some sadhanas, even some HYT sadhanas, have been translated into Western languages including English.

Kirt

_________________
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 1782
The Buddha was a rebel, yes. From the beginning to the final end he rebelled against his own ignorance and his own afflictive obscurations - one of these being indifference towards others' seeking support (refuge).


Kind regards


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Posts: 5986
Location: Taiwan
TMingyur wrote:
The Buddha was a rebel, yes. From the beginning to the final end he rebelled against his own ignorance and his own afflictive obscurations - one of these being indifference towards others' seeking support (refuge).


Kind regards


What? The Buddha eradicated his ignorance and defilements.

_________________
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) Dharma Depository (Site)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 1782
Huseng wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
The Buddha was a rebel, yes. From the beginning to the final end he rebelled against his own ignorance and his own afflictive obscurations - one of these being indifference towards others' seeking support (refuge).


Kind regards


What? The Buddha eradicated his ignorance and defilements.


Yes. After having rebelled against them :)

Kind regards


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:42 am
Posts: 8
i am so glad i dont know what you guys know i dont think i would be a happy person to much argueing for me or perhaps this is just the debating thing the monks do are any of you monastic?? :anjali:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:58 pm
Posts: 1106
kirtu wrote:
Well we have to REALLY develop the intention to attain some kind of awakening and not just play around with superficialities in our life. Once that happens the fruit will blossom.

Indeed.

kirtu wrote:
But we may also be living in the last century of true Buddhist tantra (at least Highest Yoga Tantra) at least openly.

Why do you think that this may be the last century of HYT?

(I'm not trying to start a debate, just interested in hearing your thoughts on the issue.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:28 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 4612
Location: Baltimore, MD
Yeshe D. wrote:
kirtu wrote:
But we may also be living in the last century of true Buddhist tantra (at least Highest Yoga Tantra) at least openly.

Why do you think that this may be the last century of HYT?


Well I'm wrong because I remember Nyingma lineage heads saying that HYT will continue well into the truly dark times. Lower tantra will be lost but forms of HYT will continue.

But maybe not openly. HYT is more or less openly given now. It's just mostly self-secret (people can come across it in many places given by true lineage masters but they may not know what it is, etc.). But I was thinking of the coarsening of our culture over even the last 100 years and thinking that maybe it's open expression would need to end because people now won't really practice it (except occasionally) - won't practice it intensively. As a result the practices get watered down. Those were my thoughts ...

Kirt

_________________
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:40 pm
Posts: 256
TMingyur wrote:
The Buddha was a rebel, yes. From the beginning to the final end he rebelled against his own ignorance and his own afflictive obscurations - one of these being indifference towards others' seeking support (refuge).


Kind regards

:good:

_________________
Just that! :-)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 am
Posts: 2776
http://www.youtube.com/user/RebelBuddhaTV#g/u

_________________
TWTB BIES OCB DDM BWF


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 4027
Location: Spaceship Earth
'Rebel Buddha' book tour begins at NY Cooper Union:

New York’s Cooper Union Great Hall was the site of Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche opening event on his five-city “Rebel Buddha” book tour. The daylong gathering featured Dzogchen Ponlop along with other leaders of what Dzogchen Ponlop is now labeling “American Buddhism.” His book “Rebel Buddha, On the Road to Freedom” was recently released by Shambala Publications, and Dzogchen Ponlop was quick to acknowledge his ordinariness at the event when he said,

“I am simply one CEO in a chain of monastery CEOs. More importantly, I am a basic human being with a sense of rebelliousness.”

Read More Here...

_________________
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:23 am
Posts: 452
Location: Denver, CO
I'm wondering ...... how many people in this thread have actually read or are reading Rebel Buddha?

I'm starting my 2nd reading and spent the day at the RB program in Boulder yesterday with DPR and others.

I'd be interested in discussing the book with anyone who's already read or is currently reading it or the program with anyone who attended programs in NYC, Halifax, Toronto, Boulder or Seattle (next stop).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:24 pm
Posts: 641
Location: Delaware
Hi Chaz, I attended the program in NYC :thumbsup: and am reading the book :reading: . PM me if you'd like.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:34 am 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Posts: 2995
Location: British Columbia
I would be very disappointed if you guys took this discussion offline.

_________________
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:23 am
Posts: 452
Location: Denver, CO
catmoon wrote:
I would be very disappointed if you guys took this discussion offline.


I'm sorry about that, but how do you discuss a book with people who haven't read it? How do you discuss an event with people who weren't there?

I can certainly tell you what I read or heard, but there won't be much of a discussion because there would be no common frame of reference. Telling you about something and us discussing it are two different things.

Look at this thread. You have people discussing how DPR would teach Vajrayana without a cultural element. That has nothing to do with what the book tries to teach or what DPR or his guests have been teaching on tour. The only way to find an answer to that question is to go and study with DPR. If someone can't or won't do that, then there's nothing to talk about, nothing to discuss. Besides, anyone who might describe how DPR teaches Vajrayana may very well be breaking Samaya. I'm a student of DPR and have been for a few years no and I can't answer that question. If I could I probably wouldn't.

I'd like to discuss the book or events with people who have read the book, attended an event or both.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:39 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Posts: 4612
Location: Baltimore, MD
Chaz wrote:
I'm sorry about that, but how do you discuss a book with people who haven't read it? How do you discuss an event with people who weren't there?


Hello Chaz -

What were the public things that DPR spoke about?

Kirt

_________________
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:23 am
Posts: 452
Location: Denver, CO
kirtu wrote:
Chaz wrote:
I'm sorry about that, but how do you discuss a book with people who haven't read it? How do you discuss an event with people who weren't there?


Hello Chaz -

What were the public things that DPR spoke about?

Kirt



Rebellion, Culture, Failure, Awakening, Medical Marijuana in Colorado, Mind's essential nature. A lot about awakening.

He did not speak about such things as Vajrayana nor did his panelists. His teaching was pretty much devoid of topics or terms such as Mahayana, Hinayana, 4NT, 8FNP, etc.

His talk was essentially about awakening and how setting out on the Path to Awakening is an act of rebellion. He was able to impart this without reference to a lot of cultural stuff. In fact his talk was largely devoid of Buddhist terminology. The book is the same way. In case you (or anyone) is wondering how that was accomplished ...... please read the book and/or go to Seattle this weekend.

He did not wear his maroon golf shirt with Willey Coyote on the left breast. He drank water and not Coke (his favorite beverage). He seemed a little uncomfortable with his students standing and bowing when he entered the theater (as custom dictates), especially for the afternoon panel discussion part of the program.

If you guys are REALY interested in what kind of shape "Western" Buddhism may take in the near future, READ THIS BOOK AND READ IT NOW!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:23 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm
Posts: 3142
Chaz wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Chaz wrote:
If you guys are REALY interested in what kind of shape "Western" Buddhism may take in the near future, READ THIS BOOK AND READ IT NOW!


Western Buddhism? Meaning Buddhism in western clothes having a coke in the break? I fail to see why western culture should be better than Tibetan culture?

/magnus

_________________
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 161 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group