Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

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Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:58 pm

http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby dzogchungpa » Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:42 pm

Is there something about the article that you find unclear?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:31 am

dzogchungpa wrote:Is there something about the article that you find unclear?


Nope.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby practitioner » Fri Jan 03, 2014 2:45 am

Well then that was a quick discussion...
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby Virgo » Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:32 am

From the linked article

Sharmapa wrote: "To be honest, there are many things that are done in the Tibetan monastic system that go totally against the Vinaya. Yet, you are required to take these vows. Therefore, when you take the vows, already a few hours afterward you begin breaking them"


I guess the point is to be a vow-breaker?

K
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby conebeckham » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:27 am

He's critiquing the Tibetan Monastic Power Structure and it's contradiction with Vinaya.

Good points, IMO.
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:15 am

Virgo wrote:I guess the point is to be a vow-breaker?

K
I guess the point is the very human quality of hypocrisy, in the service of self-centredness.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby honestdboy » Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:12 am

IMO, the point is that we shouldn't take vows that we cannot keep. I respect Shamarpa for being careful about what vows he took. It's counterproductive to take vows you have no hope of keeping; it hurts when you realize you can't keep the vow. :namaste:
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby Rroman » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:03 am

I found it to be a very insightful article. It actually talked about some questions I had with the vinaya. It sounds like to me that taking such vows would be almost impossible for most people. So I guess most monks then take the sang chod genyen, is that righ? No wonder some monks have girlfriends.....
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby dzoki » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:41 am

I totally agree with Shamar Rinpoche. Though I would go a bit further still.

no.1
Tibetan lay teachers dressing up as monks. I know it says somewhere that anyone who has taken refuge in Three jewels, can wear a monastic robe, but it is confusing to a general public, when a married lama is wearing monastic robe. Also this was not a custom in India, nor is it a custom in other Buddhist countries, except for Japan.

no. 2
Practice of inner tantras is not suitable for monks. The actions and behaviour of mahayoga tantra is certainly in contradiction with monastic rules. Also it is very strange that practitioners of this secret mantrayana who consider mahayoga to be superior path to hinayana, dress up in garb of hinayana as if that was a supreme path. Also Atisha pointed out that practice of anuttaratantra save for the practice tied to the vase empoverment and mantra recitation is out of bounds for monastics. This was also norm in India.

I think ngagpas should be encouraged and supported in Tibetan society, but instead of it monastic sangha is supported much more even in the roles that are not fit for her.
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby Virgo » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:03 pm

Having some (very little) experience with this, I can tell you that it is impossible for the average male (and probably female) to remain completely celibate and not masterbate at all without meditating on the vileness of the body everyday, and without skipping the evening meal (this may sound strange but it's true -- not eating in the evening helps reduce sexual desire). This is especially the case if one has a lot of contact (ie is around) people that one is attracted to.

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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby conebeckham » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:19 pm

dzoki wrote:I totally agree with Shamar Rinpoche. Though I would go a bit further still.

no.1
Tibetan lay teachers dressing up as monks. I know it says somewhere that anyone who has taken refuge in Three jewels, can wear a monastic robe, but it is confusing to a general public, when a married lama is wearing monastic robe. Also this was not a custom in India, nor is it a custom in other Buddhist countries, except for Japan.

no. 2
Practice of inner tantras is not suitable for monks. The actions and behaviour of mahayoga tantra is certainly in contradiction with monastic rules. Also it is very strange that practitioners of this secret mantrayana who consider mahayoga to be superior path to hinayana, dress up in garb of hinayana as if that was a supreme path. Also Atisha pointed out that practice of anuttaratantra save for the practice tied to the vase empoverment and mantra recitation is out of bounds for monastics. This was also norm in India.

I think ngagpas should be encouraged and supported in Tibetan society, but instead of it monastic sangha is supported much more even in the roles that are not fit for her.


I think most "lay teachers" don't wear the true monastic robes, they wear robes that, on first glance, may appear to match the monastic robes. The Shentab skirt, and the vest, etc., would be appropriate for monks, IMO, but I have no problem with "lay teachers" wearing maroon lower garment (shamgyur) and zen, etc. "Lay teachers" are still to be distinguished from "non-teachers" I would think....?

And I think "Inner Tantra" is suitable for monks, up to a point. Many great Lamas have commented on how the monastic vows and tantric samaya can be kept in harmony, and I see no problem ...Atisha may have said that, but Ngari Panchen and others have a different view.
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby Caz » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:44 pm

Je Tsongkhapa perfectly demonstrates the Union of Sutra and Tantra. :buddha1:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby Caz » Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:http://tinyurl.com/mlgeaxy

Discuss...


The Vinaya as currently practiced is not functional as Sharmapa Lama indicates :thinking:
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby Adamantine » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:08 pm

I can readily see where he's coming from but it doesn't include the subtlety of, for instance,
the text Perfect Conduct http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0861710835 which
illuminates how to relate with keeping the three sets of vows when they may appear
to be contradictory. This may mean breaking a vinaya vow in order to follow a bodhisattva
vow, whereas if you kept the vinaya vow you'd be breaking the bodhisattva one, and so on--
in this way, as in the yana system the vows are emphasized according to hierarchical importance.
This flexibility naturally depends on a diligently mindful and sincere self-analysis regarding
motivation and a profound insight into relative outer conditions. Of course, from a strictly
Theravadayana perspective that'd be a very degenerate view!
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby Konchog1 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:50 am

Bodhicitta
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby Konchog1 » Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:53 am

Bodhicitta, also:

There was a way of getting foreign funding, but this involved avoiding the tax collectors from the government, which required breaking a monastic vow. There was no other choice but to do that back then. Many of the other lamas did this and didn’t care about breaking these vows since it was invisible. But, I did care and I still do.

[...]

So if we begin to analyze, then of course there would be bad karma if this tax were for the common good of others, such as a tax which funds a hospital for the blind or a tax that will build a road. This would have bad karma. But in general, I think it does not necessarily have the nature of bad karma.
What the heck?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby dzoki » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:43 pm

conebeckham wrote:I think most "lay teachers" don't wear the true monastic robes, they wear robes that, on first glance, may appear to match the monastic robes. The Shentab skirt, and the vest, etc., would be appropriate for monks, IMO, but I have no problem with "lay teachers" wearing maroon lower garment (shamgyur) and zen, etc. "Lay teachers" are still to be distinguished from "non-teachers" I would think....?


I also don´t mind if they wear monastic or "monk-like" dress, they can wear anything, but for the general public, this is confusing.

conebeckham wrote:And I think "Inner Tantra" is suitable for monks, up to a point. Many great Lamas have commented on how the monastic vows and tantric samaya can be kept in harmony, and I see no problem ...Atisha may have said that, but Ngari Panchen and others have a different view.


I am not sure what sources Ngari Panchen used as his basis, and also maybe from the point of anuyoga this is fine. But in Samvara and Hevajra etc. in the original way of transmission of these tantras, the practitioners were required to bring consort in order to receive secret empowerment. Which obviously members of monastic sangha could not do. The only exception were bodhisattvas who have achieved bhumis, that is why there were a handful of mahasiddhas who were monks, since there is no mistake in prajna, they could bring a consort to be symbolically present at the empowerment. Later this was replaced with visalisations, tsakli etc. Also for example Gampopa proposed to use milk instead of alcohol for the monastic recipients of anuttaratantra empowerment. So Tibetans modified these things in order to fit with Kadampa doctrine.

I think that monastic sangha is relevant and important, but I would like to see vajrayana go back to its roots. First of all I would not permit general public to receive these teachings the way it is now. My sentiment is that it should really be more serious and much more hidden and secret. Secondly I see a role of monastic sangha in preserving outer tantra practices and sutra studies and philosophy. These things could be taught to general public and in many cases I think that they would have been much more beneficial for the confused "tantric" practitioners than the actual practice of tantra. As for highest tantra and inner tantras, these would be taught to serious lay practitioners who would undergo regular retreats - for example half year in half year out, or some kind of semi-retreat setting for a whole life, but during the process of such training everything would be included, all the aspects of secret mantra in the way that they were practiced in India and Odiyana, if these could be rejuvenated, refreshed and reconstructed. Instead of complicated sadhanas with loads of prayers, simple Indian style sadhanas would be taught. I think this would have great benefit. Anyways this is just my sentiment, so basically a namtog and nothing to be taken seriously.
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby Sherlock » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:30 pm

I could be wrong, but that is a major difference between Dzogchen and the tantras too -- although there are wrathful deities and guardians associated with it along with their iconography, there is no real antinomian practice going on in all classes of Dzogchen teachings.
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Re: Shamar on Monastic Buddhism in Tibet

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:06 am

Konchog1 wrote:What the heck?


Hi Konchog,

are you trying to make a point here? If so, I'm afraid, I don't get it.

Best wishes,

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