I received Mahamudra instructions before even taking refuge!JKhedrup wrote:I have two main motivations for doing the Ngondro:
1)Purifying and accumulating
2)being eligible to receive teachings on Mahamudra from HHK when he finally gives them
conebeckham wrote:Deity yoga, in general, is "part" of the Path of Liberation, which is the focus of the Kagyu ngondro---the spontaneously-coemergent Mahamudra. But it's not the same "deity yoga" path as that of the Path of Means, which relates to Creation and Completion in a more extensive form--the full sadhanas of the Three Main Kamtsang Yidams, and the Six Yogas of Naropa.
conebeckham wrote:TharLam, the Path of Liberation, in the Karma Kagyu tradition is the path of Mahamudra, the Coemergent Mahamudra....as presented mainly by Gampopa and his followers. Deity yoga is a part of that path--as is the Ngondro, and the meditation practices of Shinay and Lhatkong, as well as the practice of combining the two, and resting in Mind's Nature, or Ordinary Mind, after it has been properly pointed out, and recognized. Deity Yoga is a method that can be useful in this path, but it is not the essential element.
The TabLam, or Path of Means, is the Path of the Two Stages--the Path of Creation Stage, elaborate retreat practices on the main Yidams of the Karma Kagyu--Phagmo, especially, but also Demchok and GyalGyam, and the Path of the Completion Stage which includes Naropa's Six Yogas, and Mahamudra as well. In this path, the deity yoga practice is the essential practice, for beginners, and even for those who are farther along the path.
In practice, both of these are combined, more or less, according to one's capacity and one's teacher's evaluation of the student, etc. The Three Year Retreat, in general, focuses more on the TabLam, while the Tharlam is felt to be more suited to lay practitioners, or non-sealed-retreat settings.
Emphasis mine.Path of means. Refers to the stages of development and completion with attributes (RY)
Karma Jinpa wrote:Emphasis mine.Path of means. Refers to the stages of development and completion with attributes (RY)
I think I'm starting to get the distinction a bit more thanks to your words, Cone.
Can you or anyone else explain the difference between creation & completion with attributes, and without, and which category these fall into (Tharlam or Thablam)? Perhaps through my curiosity I'm simply intellectualizing this a bit too much. Then again, it's good to have your bearings and know which path it is you're taking, right?
passel wrote:Cone and Magnus- can you recommend a couple of good book sources for following up on the distinctions you are making? Thanks!
Stewart wrote:The text from Samye Ling is the 9th Karmapa's text....same as KTD.
Karma Pakshi is a separate Guru Yoga, usually done after Ngondro.
The short Jamgon Kongtrul Ngondro Magnus linked to, was the text usually taught by Mingyur Rinpoche as part of a 3 year Mahamudra course he used to teach....it's very nice and concise.
Edit: just checked the Samye Ling website... No idea why it says Guru Yoga: Karma Pakshi....they may have included it as Mingyur Rinpoche taught it there a few times....but I doubt it....I'll ask Ani Paldron in the shop. The standard Guru Yoga is in that to text....plus you need a separate Wang, Lung and Tri for Karma Pakshi....it's quite an elaborate Sadhana.
conebeckham wrote:But, even talking about the longer one, the amount and content of detail, for instance, of the refuge field can differ depending on which Lama you've talked to. Generally, it's the same, but I've seen depictions of the tsokshing with the Lamas in various places, and differences in the yidams portrayed, etc., etc.
So, I wouldn't worry too much about the details. Instead, ask yourself what you realistically can do..the long or short one? Maybe sometimes it's one, sometimes another. In either case, don't forget the main aspects of the visualization-Vajradhara, The Karmapas and other Tulkus of the lineage massed around him, the yidams with central figure being either/or Phagmo and Demchok, Chenrezig as the focus of the Noble Sangha, Sakyamuni as the focus of the Buddhas, Mahakala and Mahakali as the central focus of the protectors.....
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