2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Jinzang » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:27 am

I was around as the whole unfortunate mess unfolded and what was said immediately after his death was that the Karmapa always leaves a prediction letter saying where he will be reborn and that the four "heart sons" would jointly act as regents until the next Karmapa was found and would use the prediction letter to locate him. How things unfolded, everyone here knows.
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Karinos » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:07 pm

a bit about Karma Kagyu history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz8Lz-RHHEg

interesting at 1:20 what Karmapa says about Shamarpa and how he respects him.
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Sherab Dorje » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:03 pm

The statue of the 16th Karmapa behind him freaked me out there for a second! :o
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One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Dhondrub » Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:50 pm

Karinos wrote:a bit about Karma Kagyu history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz8Lz-RHHEg

interesting at 1:20 what Karmapa says about Shamarpa and how he respects him.



karinos, are you mac sz?

best
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Caz » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:18 pm

You Kagyu's are very lucky to have 2 Karmapa's both are great teachers from what I have witnessed. Has anyone seen HH Sharmapas recent letters ?
Abandoning Dharma is, in the final analysis, disparaging the Hinayana because of the Mahayana; favoring the Hinayana on account of the Mahayana; playing off sutra against tantra; playing off the four classes of the tantras against each other; favoring one of the Tibetan schools—the Sakya, Gelug, Kagyu, or Nyingma—and disparaging the rest; and so on. In other words, we abandon Dharma any time we favor our own tenets and disparage the rest.

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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Karinos » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:53 pm

Dhondrub wrote:
karinos, are you mac sz?

best
tashi


indeed :)
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Dhondrub » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:09 am

Karinos wrote:
Dhondrub wrote:
karinos, are you mac sz?

best
tashi


indeed :)

:spy:
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby AlexanderS » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:59 am

Caz wrote:You Kagyu's are very lucky to have 2 Karmapa's both are great teachers from what I have witnessed. Has anyone seen HH Sharmapas recent letters ?


I don't think, I have. Where can I see them?

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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Karinos » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:42 pm

http://www.shamarpa.org/index.php?id=5

I like this - but it's not new one -
[url]http://www.shamarpa.org/index.php?id=6&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=11&tx_ttnews[backPid]=5&cHash=629a44bbc1[/url]
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Kilaya. » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:19 pm

Karmapa - Two Ways of Divinity

http://vimeo.com/19148869

The most unbiased documentary movie about the two Karmapas I've ever seen.
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby kirtu » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:24 pm

Unfortunately the Sharmapa is freaking me out with his claim that Westerners shouldn't practice deity yoga.

But I have to keep an open mind ....

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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby heart » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:28 pm

[quote="kirtu"]Unfortunately the Sharmapa is freaking me out with his claim that Westerners shouldn't practice deity yoga.

But I have to keep an open mind ....

Kirt[/quote

Yes, it is strange. But, Mahayana have a lot of less complications than the Vajrayana. Compassion and emptiness is a great combo.

/magnus
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby kirtu » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:37 pm

heart wrote:
kirtu wrote:Unfortunately the Sharmapa is freaking me out with his claim that Westerners shouldn't practice deity yoga.

But I have to keep an open mind ....

Kirt[/quote

Yes, it is strange. But, Mahayana have a lot of less complications than the Vajrayana. Compassion and emptiness is a great combo.

/magnus


:rolling: :tongue:

But Three Countless Eon's is too long - we have to purify all negativities right now, :quoteunquote: superfast :quoteunquote: ....

Kirt
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby kirtu » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:37 am

heart wrote:
kirtu wrote:Unfortunately the Sharmapa is freaking me out with his claim that Westerners shouldn't practice deity yoga.

But I have to keep an open mind ....

Kirt


Yes, it is strange. But, Mahayana have a lot of less complications than the Vajrayana. Compassion and emptiness is a great combo.

/magnus


Oh I accidentally misquoted the Sharmapa - he thinks few people, Western or Asian, are really ready for Vajrayana and that the sutric Bodhisattvayana with essentially sutric meditation (from the Samadhiraja Sutra, so it sounds like the so-called Kagyu sutric Mahamudra) is best for most people these days.

Anyway, keeping an open mind ....

Kirt
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“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby heart » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:25 am

kirtu wrote:
heart wrote:
Yes, it is strange. But, Mahayana have a lot of less complications than the Vajrayana. Compassion and emptiness is a great combo.

/magnus


:rolling: :tongue:

But Three Countless Eon's is too long - we have to purify all negativities right now, :quoteunquote: superfast :quoteunquote: ....

Kirt


I heard the Shamarpa was a very gifted Dzogchen practitioner when he was young and have a great capacity for giving direct introduction so the Mahayana he is suggesting might not be so slow. To me it sounds like Sutra Mahamudra combined with compassion and devotion, it could actually be quite fast.

/magnus
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby AlexanderS » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:23 am

Kilaya. wrote:Karmapa - Two Ways of Divinity

http://vimeo.com/19148869

The most unbiased documentary movie about the two Karmapas I've ever seen.


Very nice video, thank you very much.
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby sherabpa » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:56 pm

heart wrote:
pemachophel wrote:Sherabpa,

Why exactly do you say that there can't be two Karmapas? The famous Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo Rinpoche had at least five tulkus. There are numerous other lines of tulkus where there are more than one. Another example are the three lines of Pema Lingpa tulkus: Body, Speech, and Mind.
I'd just like to know your reasoning for saying that, when it comes of the Karmapa, there can be only one valid tulku. Thanks.


Also, Tulku Urgyen said there could be two Karmapa's, already from the beginning.

/magnus


When I say there is only one Karmapa, this as a matter of fact, rather than a statement of what is possible. I don't mean to deny there could be two Karmapas. This is possible - when it comes to Karmapa, many amazing things are possible. I do not say 'there can be only one'. What I mean is, in the particular case of Orgyen Thinley Dorje and Thinley Thaye Dorje, one of them is a fake. It does not follow that there could not ever be two Karmapas at any point in time.

And the reason I think one of them is fake is that nobody - neither Orgyen Thinley nor Thinley Thaye, nor their gurus, not any high Kagyu gurus of the past, say that both of them are Karmapa. If these high lamas changed their views and said there were two Karmapas, that would change things. But to say there are two Karmapas is to contradict what all the high lamas say. On what grounds can someone ordinary like me make such an extraordinary claim?

We must avoid hostility and respect the fact that both claimants have their authentic Kagyu lamas who say they are Karmapa. But there is no fault in saying that one of the claimants is a fake, for this is to agree with what all the high lamas say.
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Malcolm » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:43 pm

sherabpa wrote:
It does not follow that there could not ever be two Karmapas at any point in time.



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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby honestdboy » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:12 pm

Tulku Urgyen wanted both Karmapas to be respected. Beru Khyentse Rinpoche strongly supports both Karmapas. The great Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche does, too. I respect their efforts at bringing the Kagyu family back together. I imagine some of the different branches of the Kagyu lineage have their origins in similar disagreements. I have studied with lamas on both sides of this issue and will continue to do so. I wish the two Karmapas could meet and talk things out in private.
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Re: 2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:13 pm

sherabpa wrote:We must avoid hostility and respect the fact that both claimants have their authentic Kagyu lamas who say they are Karmapa. But there is no fault in saying that one of the claimants is a fake, for this is to agree with what all the high lamas say.
Your reasoning is completely flawed. If both claimants have authentic Kagyu Lamas that say they are Karmapa then neither Karmapa is fake and the "true" Karmapa for each individual is based on which "high lama" they happen to agree with. Anyway you are also wrong on another count: there are "high lama" that believe both of the candidates are authentic, Beru Khyentse (long life to him!) is one of the supporters of this position.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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