2 Karmapas: Let's avoid any hostility

[Luke]

Hello fellow Kagyupa,

It's inevitable that we will have people who follow Trinley Thaye Dorje and people who follow Ogyen Trinley Dorje in this forum. Personally, I follow Trinley Thaye Dorje because this is what my sangha does. However, I know that many people follow the other Karmapa.

Anyway, I think it's important to have a statement of friendship between those who follow the different Karmapas. The controversy has already been discussed in great detail in other forums. Those who have great faith in one of the Karmapas will probably not change their opinions.

I hope that the followers of both Karmapas will not be unkind to one another here. Saying unkind things because of this controversy would not be in the spirit of the Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism and would most likely get in the way of our spiritual development.

We all seek to follow the Kagyu path as it was passed down by Tilopa and Gampopa. Living in peace with each other seems like the best way to do this.

Kind regards,

Luke

[Ngawang Drolma]

Thanks very much Luke, for this important reminder.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Hostility is not cool... hostility is a manifestation of the flames of greed, aversion and delusion.

So don't be hostile, burning with these flames - be cool.

Metta,
Retro.

[Ngawang Drolma]

[Dazzle]

Hi Luke,

I have been a student in the lineage of HH 17th Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje for many years (and I took Refuge with the 16th Karmapa) My own website is dedicated to his long life as well as to the long life of HH Dalai Lama who,amongst others, officially approved his recognition .The two are close friends.

It is, therefore, unavoidable that any links or references to teachings that I have given, or might give, would be from teachers and centres under the direction of the Karmapa I follow myself.

I certainly feel no hostility towards you or any other student of Trinley Thai Dorje and most definately have no intention of being unkind to anyone at all in this forum.

With kind wishes to you,

Dazzle

[thornbush]

Let's just say that with 2 Karmapas....one gets 2 mirrors: to doubly reflect on our own selves and doubly increase practice.

[Jechbi]

flag.gif (5.27 KiB) Viewed 2409 times

[Luke]

I took Refuge with the 16th Karmapa

Awesome! If you have any stories about meeting the 16th Karmapa, I'd love hear them sometime.

It is, therefore, unavoidable that any links or references to teachings that I have given, or might give, would be from teachers and centres under the direction of the Karmapa I follow myself.

No problem. I value good teachings from any high quality source.

I certainly feel no hostility towards you or any other student of Trinley Thaye Dorje and most definately have no intention of being unkind to anyone at all in this forum.

Okay, cool. *Shakes Dazzle's hand*

At the very least, both Karmapas are lamas who have dedicated their lives to the study and teaching of Dharma.

[irishbuddhist]

Maybe you shouldnt just follow this "karmapa" because it is what your sangha does?

[Mr. G]

Maybe you shouldnt just follow this "karmapa" because it is what your sangha does?

HI irish,

You've just revived a 2+ year old thread. Is there something specific you'd like to address? Everyone here is already well versed on this issue. We just choose not to engage in endless debate not because we are ignorant of the issue, but because it is not conducive to one's Dharma practice.

[gregkavarnos]

Three Karmapas viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6738#p80223 may all have long life and benefit countless beings through their practice!

[YesheDron'May]

I keep reading all these threads about the 2 karmapas and still no one has answered my question . Which is....
Which Karmapa did the Chinese appoint ? or chose ? All direct answers appreciated . Yeshe

[gregkavarnos]

Your question was answered here viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6738&start=20#p82554 you didn't bother reading it?

[conebeckham]

Can we get a "hitting head against brick wall" smilie?? This would be a perfect opportunity for one, eh?

[Norwegian]

conebeckham, since that smilie does not exist here, let me introduce you to an alternative; the Internet standard:

The Picard Facepalm.

[conebeckham]

Perfect!

[gregkavarnos]

What about this one?

[conebeckham]

Perfect!

We should have it added to the collection!

Too funny, Greg....

[rai]

Hello fellow Kagyupa,

It's inevitable that we will have people who follow Trinley Thaye Dorje and people who follow Ogyen Trinley Dorje in this forum. Personally, I follow Trinley Thaye Dorje because this is what my sangha does. However, I know that many people follow the other Karmapa.

Anyway, I think it's important to have a statement of friendship between those who follow the different Karmapas. The controversy has already been discussed in great detail in other forums. Those who have great faith in one of the Karmapas will probably not change their opinions.

I hope that the followers of both Karmapas will not be unkind to one another here. Saying unkind things because of this controversy would not be in the spirit of the Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism and would most likely get in the way of our spiritual development.

We all seek to follow the Kagyu path as it was passed down by Tilopa and Gampopa. Living in peace with each other seems like the best way to do this.

Kind regards,

Luke

[sherabpa]

Let's just say that with 2 Karmapas....one gets 2 mirrors: to doubly reflect on our own selves and doubly increase practice.

We certainly ought to avoid hostility, which is only damaging to the Kagyu lineage as a whole. But there is no reason to accept two Karmapas. Take this guy Dawa Sangpo, an obvious charlatan, or any fake guru claiming to be Karmapa. They are not Karmapa, and no sensible person would say they are Karmapa.

Similarly, though Thinley Thaye Dorje and Orgyen Thinley Dorje both have far more convincing grounds for saying they are Karmapa than Dawa Sangpo, one of them is not Karmapa.

It is not even right to pretend they are both Karmapas as an expedient to Buddhahood. As Shantideva says at 6.116-117,

Since they are both means of winning buddhahood
We say that beings are the same as buddhas
Even though they are not equal
In the boundless ocean of buddhas' qualities.
Yet even if a tiny fraction of those qualities
Were found contained in a certain being's heart
The three worlds made in offerings to them
Would not be enough to honour them.

So I say one is Karmapa, one is not. Perhaps I do not even know which one it is, though I think if one looks in an honest and straightforward way, one can easily see. But there is no reason for hostility on any side.

However, sometimes the truth is difficult to accept, so it is inevitable that sometimes, when one tries to uphold the truth, people will get upset. The thing to do is not to rub it in their faces if they're not ready for the truth. I would avoid doing that, but I would never say there are two Karmapas, which would be a deception.