Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

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Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby benchen » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:51 pm

What is the name of the Kagyu group which now becomes Nyingma group ?
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby conebeckham » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:41 pm

I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about--perhaps you're talking about Shambhala or Dharmadatu, Trungpa's organizations which appear to have become somewhat more affiliated with Nyingma lineage--though I think it's not so clear as that?
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby ngodrup » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:53 am

Historically Surmang, the seat of the Trungpas, was essentially
Ka-Nying. In that the Shambhala teachings are based mainly
on Mipham, Gesar and Kalachakra, and the current Sakyong
is an incarnation of Mipham, not to mention that his wife is
the daughter of a prominent Nyingma Terton-- its really only
a matter of degree one way or the other.
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby Jinzang » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:12 am

The turn of Shambhala towards the Nyingma began when Khyentse Rinpoche was invited to teach at Shambhala and he introduced Nyingma practices to that sangha. It accelerated when the Sakyong took Penor Rinpoche as his teacher. Back in the old days Shambhala was Trungpa Rinpoche's own mix of Kagyu and Zen and the sadhanas that were practiced came strictly from the Karma Kagyu tradition.

Not that it matters particularly, but trying to set the record straight, at least as far as I remember it.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby Tom » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:32 am

Actually, the founder of the Surmang tradition, Trang Mase, received many Kagyu and Nyingma teachings, however his primary teacher was the 5th Karmapa. Jomgon Kongtrol mentions in his Treasury of Knowledge (Esoteric Instructions volume) that the special transmission of the profound and vast instructions of ripening and liberation of the Dakpo Hearing Lineage (Gompopa) fell to the Surmang Kagyu and it continues unbroken up to the present. Also, Rechungpa's special instructions came down to this lineage and also many terma teachings.

Although,I am not familiar with the Shambhala teachings of Trungpa and Mipam Rinpoche it was my impression that the Shambhala teachings were not intended to represent the Surmang tradition, although of course Trungpa is one of the three most important Surmang tulkus.
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby ngodrup » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:11 am

"...sadhanas that were practiced came strictly from the Karma Kagyu tradition."

Yes and no, because after Vajrayogini and Chakrasamvara, Shambhala students
practice Vajrakilaya. That was Trungpa's track.
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby oldbob » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:55 pm

I have heard that the Lion of Dharma, Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche, may he live long in good health and with success in all things, taught, from a theoretical and practical viewpoint, ALL the inner teachings of the Nyingmapa, (and Kagyupa) to those lucky few former students of V. Trungpa Rinpoche, who were privileged to attend his "inner" classes, held for many Summers, after Ven. Trungpa Rinpoche passed away.

Amazing!!!

Perhaps the great practitioners within every lineage respect the great practitioners and practices of all lineages and make use of them as applicable.

ob
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby conebeckham » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:51 pm

Indeed, Old Bob....the great masters teach what is effective, and Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso is indeed a great master. A master of Chod. A master of Dzogchen. A master of Mahamudra, and Madhyamika, and the Two Stages. In fact, his practice is inconceivable.

However, we're talking here about "institutions," and we can, therefore, make distinctions, etc.

One distinction I'll make is that the Surmang Kagyu is NOT equivalent to Shambhala, or Dharmadhatu/Vajradhatu. The latter organizations are specifically "Western," and were creations of Trungpa, which, in my mind, are still evolving under the direction of the Sakyong.

The other comment perhaps worth making is that Kalachakra Tantra is primarily known as a translation of the Sarma. Please don't construe this as "cheerleading for the Sarma," though....what I'm trying to point out is that Trungpa's institutions were based very much on a Rime impetus...and continue to be based on a Non-Sectarian basis, and on Skillful means above all. The "Shambhala elements" are Trungpa's skillful means, IMO, although the basis can be found to some extent in Kalachakra. But Shambhala, institutionally, doesn't teach Kalachakra as a sadhana or method. Dharmadhatu continues to uphold Trungpa's presentation of "sitting," as well as the Tantric path of Mahamudra Ngondro, Vajrayogini, Chakrasamvara, and also Vajrakilaya as explained by Khyentse Wangpo, as well as Trungpa's Sadhana of Mahamudra, and also Longchen Nyingthik as well as other tantric practices. Perhaps in the future we will see even more diversity, but I don't think the "Kagyu Practices" have been abandoned.
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby ngodrup » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:04 pm

:twothumbsup: good. good, good.
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:07 pm

Cone,

Isn't Konchok Chidu, an ostensibly Nyingma terma practice, one of the most commonly practiced teachings in modern Karma Kagyu?

And then I remember something about the Karma Pakshi Guru yoga that is so commonly recited as being a mind terma of a great Nyingma lama, though with that one I could be mistaken.
In order to ensure my mind never comes under the power of the self-cherishing attitude,
I must obtain control over my own mind.
Therefore, amongst all empowerments, the empowerment that gives me control over my mind is the best,
and I have received the most profound empowerment with this teaching.
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brtsal ba'i bkhra drin
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby conebeckham » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:25 pm

Sure, JKhedrup, Konchok Chidu is quite popular in Karma Kagyu.

And Pakshi Ladrup is a Gongter of sorts, from Yongay Mingyur Dorje, who practiced Karma Kagyu methods and revealed terma as well--those termas are upheld by Karma Kagyu institutions as well--Tsedrup Tabshay Kajor, Yongay Dorje Drollo, and Yongay Pema Benzra, as well as the Pakshi Ladrup.

Karma Kagyu also engages with Chogling Tersar quite extensively. There's also Karma Nyingtik, a complete Nyingtik cycle revealed by Karmapa Rangjung Dorje himself. Lots of so-called "Nyingma" practices are propagated in the Karma Kagyu!

I find it useful to consider the difference between Institutional lineages, and Practice Lineages. Kongtrul outlined the 8 Chariots, which are the practice lineages, collections of instructions brought to Tibet (or, in the case of Chod, Shijay, at least partly originating in Tibet)--and in fact these are all combined and presented, in various ways, as the practice instructions of the currently-extant 5 institutional lineages. I say "5," because, happily, the Jonang have made great strides in the last decade in establishing themselves as an institution. In fact,t he Jonang core is the Dorje Naljor of the Kalachakra, but the Shangpa practices are a large part of the institutional curriculum.

I think we can only address the topic of this thread, in fact, if we understand we're talking about "Institutions." But ultimately, I think it's meaningless. :smile:
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby Greg » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:08 pm

conebeckham wrote:Dharmadhatu continues to uphold Trungpa's presentation of "sitting," as well as the Tantric path of Mahamudra Ngondro, Vajrayogini, Chakrasamvara, and also Vajrakilaya as explained by Khyentse Wangpo, as well as Trungpa's Sadhana of Mahamudra, and also Longchen Nyingthik as well as other tantric practices. Perhaps in the future we will see even more diversity, but I don't think the "Kagyu Practices" have been abandoned.


This is more true in theory than practice. The few older students who are still around do still have feasts for Vajrayogini, Chakrasamvara, so in that sense those practices have not been abandoned. And yes, there are still the one-off workshops on Mahamudra practices, and the SOM is still done on occassion.

But until 2008 or so new students were given a Karma Kagyu ngondro which led to those practices, and now they no longer are. That track has not been officially abandoned, but it is now buried under so many other things that practically speaking no one new will ever get to it. Pretty much everything revolves around the Shambhala terma cycle now for everyone who isn't grandfathered into something else. All of the iconography of the shrines and centers has been changed to the Shambhala stuff (Gesar/Ridgen/Shiwa Okar), aside from an occasional stray Bernakchen or Milarepa in a secondary location. The chants have been revised so that they center around the Shambhala stuff, aside from a few very general shout outs to Kagyu figures. The supplication to the 16th/17th Karmapa, done nightly for decades, was phased out. Visits by outside lamas have been curtailed very sharply.

It is never phrased as such, but in practice the Shambhala terma has been repositioned as a new (albeit idiosyncratic) Nyingma lineage that SMR is the head of, and that is the only real priority going forward.
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby ngodrup » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:10 pm

Sadhana of Mahmudra seems to be a regular practice at the local center near me.
As I live with Shambhalians, I hear about what happens. Also, I read the newsletter
from Rocky Mountain.

SOM is terma, seems central, and is a hybrid guru yoga based on the union of
Karma Pakshi and Guru Rinpoche in the aspect of Dorje Drollo.

Looks like they still do four armed Mahakala and before Losar they still
do Mamo confession. But generally, it look like they've refocused on
the shambhala cycle of terma as a "brand."
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby conebeckham » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:52 pm

well, Greg and Ngodrup, you likely know more than me.....it is interesting, what you're saying. Most of my knowledge comes from older, long-term pre-Shambhala folks....
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby Yeti » Fri May 03, 2013 12:19 pm

I had heard from old VCTR students that the intended vajrayana path for his students was full Kagyu ngon.dro, Vajrayogini, then Chakrasambhava practice. Then they would do either full or part Nyingma ngon.dro and three roots of either Longchen Nyingthik, Konchok Chidu or Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche's terma; Rangjung Pema Nyingthik, then the ati practices.

Also, regarding the Shambhala transmissions, Trungpa gave these in full to Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and he passed them in full back to Sakyong Mipham, who did a lot of these practices under HH Dilgo Khyentse before he passed. I was told by a tulku at Shechen that Sakyong Mipham really flourished in his practice at this time.

And as mentioned there are certain yidam practices that VCTR wanted his students to practice, ala certain Vajrakilaya cycle/s.

There's also addendum to this, but I'm not going to go into it, for that you have to ask VCTR students who heard his intentions directly from him.
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby ngodrup » Fri May 03, 2013 3:14 pm

Indeed. And it seems they are still doing the 'three year retreat' expanded
to six years (in six month increments with six month breaks back in the world)
based on the traditional Kagyu Curriculum. Of course, the usual Shambhala
hoops need to be jumped through to enter that program. If memory serves
one must have had werma transmission to enter, although the drupdra is
not based on the Shambhala terma. The people who complete it are still
Kagyu linneage holders.

So in some ways there seems to have been some repositioning in terms
of what is generally taught publicly, the backbone seems unchanged.
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Re: Kagyu group now becomes Nyingma Tradtion ?

Postby Greg » Sat May 04, 2013 1:56 am

ngodrup wrote:Indeed. And it seems they are still doing the 'three year retreat' expanded
to six years (in six month increments with six month breaks back in the world)
based on the traditional Kagyu Curriculum. Of course, the usual Shambhala
hoops need to be jumped through to enter that program. If memory serves
one must have had werma transmission to enter, although the drupdra is
not based on the Shambhala terma. The people who complete it are still
Kagyu linneage holders.

So in some ways there seems to have been some repositioning in terms
of what is generally taught publicly, the backbone seems unchanged.


That may be true, but the three year retreat is completely marginal to the community as a whole, so to extrapolate anything from it is misleading.
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