I don't know what that means.Glasswalker wrote:I am aware that Tummo etc is later, much like the example you mentioned. However the diamond way guys said specifically that within diamond way Ole teaches that Tummo and active completion stage work, such as working with the drops etc is not needed as its all "part of nGondro." I just found it odd that Ole thinks that 100 000 prostrations, vajrasattva purification would lead to the "same effects".
I don't know much but I've heard: "Ole is an egomaniac and a bigot" "Diamond Way are extremists" "Diamond Way supports the wrong Karmapa" etc. But, I've never heard that their teachings are wrong or their lineage is fake. As far as I know, Diamond Way teachings are the standard Karma Kagyu teachings.Glasswalker wrote:As a follow up question: What do you mean with legit but controversial? Are his empowerments and taking refuge with him accepted by other Lamas, or will it be the case that if I ever wish to have an empowerment that is not offered in Diamond way, and I contact the group they might say, no xxx wang for you since you belong to a vajrayana school we don't believe is valid, hence your previous work counts as nothing
I don't know what that means.Konchog1 wrote:Glasswalker wrote:I am aware that Tummo etc is later, much like the example you mentioned. However the diamond way guys said specifically that within diamond way Ole teaches that Tummo and active completion stage work, such as working with the drops etc is not needed as its all "part of nGondro." I just found it odd that Ole thinks that 100 000 prostrations, vajrasattva purification would lead to the "same effects".
See to me that sounds like saying that you can just keep saying a buddha's name and have a strong wish to be reborn in thats Buddha's pureland for it to happen.
or am I missing something?
That's bizarre. And wrong.He replied that Ole does not think one needs to meditate on the drops and the channels, since doing the prostrations and the Vajrasattva purification has the same effect and indirectly activates the same inner channels and energies as one would get from working directly with these things.
As far as I know, Diamond Way teachings are the standard Karma Kagyu teachings.
heart wrote:The Diamondway path only contains a small subset of the Karma Kagyu teachings. There have been a lot of discussion about if Ole actually is a qualified teacher. I can't see a single reason to get involved.
Glasswalker, don't look for Sangha look for a Guru.
...the traditionalism in some of the centers that basically seem to be aimed at turning you into a monk and not considering the tantrika/yogin aspect of a layperson.
Hogwash on two major accounts: 1. Ngondro IS a "juicy" teaching, there are examples of practitioners gaining realisations through Ngondro alone. 2. If you have completed Ngondro practices, or are in the process of completing them, ie you have shown that you are a "serious" practitioner, then many lama will give you "juicy" teachings without you having done the 3 year retreat. The three year retreat is a prerequisite if you want to be a lama. Of course, learning/applying the practices outside of retreat, takes a hell of a lot longer.Lingpupa wrote:I would say that, in spite of the famous examples of Marpa and Milarepa, many kagyu centres and teachers (okay, this is a broad brush, don't take it as a fixed rule) do seem to view the majority of their "sangha", i.e. the householders, as a kind of feedstock (which is really too harsh, but you probably know what I mean), and that "juicy" teachings are reserved for people in three-year retreat (and not necessarily their first three-year retreat either).
gregkavarnos wrote:Hogwash on two major accounts: 1. Ngondro IS a "juicy" teaching, there are examples of practitioners gaining realisations through Ngondro alone.
2. If you have completed Ngondro practices, or are in the process of completing them, ie you have shown that you are a "serious" practitioner, then many lama will give you "juicy" teachings without you having done the 3 year retreat.
I do believe that that we can "thrash it out" without going into details about practices.Lingpupa wrote:Yes, certainly, but to some extent also no, if I may say so. For sure, you will get more "advanced" teachings (let me repeat that I do take your point about Ngondro being "juicy"), but I submit that there is often a "glass ceiling", hard to pass through without doing a (or two or three) three-year retreats.
But to thrash this out thoroughly we would have to be much more specific about what we mean by "juicy" or "advanced", and that would require going into a level of detail that would probably not be helpful.
gregkavarnos wrote:Suffice to say that the whole "three year retreat" deal has more to do with the standardisation of a monastic curriculim than the substantial or intrinsic quality of the practices themselves.
The whole idea of the retreats seems to have originated with the back-flip that the Kagyu lineage made when it transformed from a bunch of dirty roaming yogis to gompas and shedras. The stories of the 84 mahasiddhas are testimony to that fact.
...many of the mahasiddhas never left their day-to-day life in order to practice and reach extraordinary levels of realisation and capacity.
I would say that there are definitely benefits to the three year retreat: time being one of them, pressure to complete the practices, a more stable practice environment, direct daily access to a teacher, etc...
So I am going to have to disagree that there is a glass-ceiling,
But (and this, for me is the crux of the matter): is it really necessary to complete all those practices if one is not going to be a lama, or is the yidam (more than) enough?
I dig what you are saying. I guess it all depends on ones lama as to how "far" along the path they want to take you. The truth is though that as a practitioner, outside of a retreat situation, you need to start out quite early and be really dedicated to be able to complete the institutional prerequisites. On the other hand, you may have the karma to meet a lama that assesses your situation and just hands you over a yidam. You may not even be aware they have done so. I have personally seen this happen (not to me, to a friend...).Lingpupa wrote:I suspect that the reason you disagree is that we have understood this phrase differently. I am not saying (or at any rate I did not intend to say) that there has to be, needs to be or should be a glass ceiling. What I wanted to say is that the tradition as we have it now tends to insert a glass ceiling, and tell students that "Well, this much you can do, as a kind of preparation, but if you want to do the Six Yogas then maybe that will come at the end of your first three year retreat, or maybe not". (I'm using the Six Yogas merely as an example, because they are well known.)
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