Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

[mutsuk]

Would you say then that only a Buddhist can achieve realization?

Are there Buddhas outside Buddhism (and Bön)? Please list...

[ngodrup]

Would you say then that only a Buddhist can achieve realization?

Are there Buddhas outside Buddhism (and Bön)? Please list...

Well, that is an interesting question. Tibetans generally regard
people who have vast benefit as Bodhisattvas. And some high
lamas have named figures like Mary or Lincoln as emanations
of Chenresig. But now we get into debate is Chenresig a Buddha
or Bodhisattva? I say we can't really say on the face of it, unless
we ourselves are Buddhas.

Note: I'm clearly not saying anything one way or the other at all
or they're all the same, etc.

[Yudron]

Could everyone please go ? Maybe a mod could split the discussion about Aro. Would anyone also happen to know about any tertons in Western or Central Tibet?

Historically, Jigme Lingpa practiced at Samye Chimphu. But I have not heard of any who live in these areas currently. Inside the so-called Tibetan Autonomous Region (TAR), which includes all of central Tibet and part of Kham, the PRC rules are much tighter, and lamas are continually monitored by Chinese and Tibetan government spies. I don't know how auspicious that would be for treasure revelation.

[mutsuk]

Well, that is an interesting question. Tibetans generally regard
people who have vast benefit as Bodhisattvas. And some high
lamas have named figures like Mary or Lincoln as emanations
of Chenresig.

Well, to me this is nonsense at all. Buddhahood means having reached the 3 Bodies and the 5 Wisdoms. I don't think Mary (you mean of course the Virgin Mary, right?) and Lincoln have ever displayed this realization. I'm convinced these "high lamas" have no idea who actually were the people they listed like this. Honestly, this is bullsh*t for Westerners.

[ngodrup]

I'm absolutely, categorically *not* saying it is or isn't. And you can question
Lamas like Choden Rinpoche who debated HHDL when HH was taking his Geshe,
who accomplished Chu Len and also spent 20 years in retreat accomplishing
Chakrasamvara (in Tibet) all you like. My very limited experience of
him is he doesn't BS. I personally was fascinated that he said Mary
was an emanation of Chenresig rather than Tara and didn't mention
Jesus at all. But again, there are different ways of classifying Bodhisattvas.
Chenresig can be seen as either a Bodhisattva or Buddha.

Back to topic. Although Tare Khandro (Tare Lhamo) was from Golok,
I believe I head she spent time in U-tsang as well.

[Yudron]

Well, that is an interesting question. Tibetans generally regard
people who have vast benefit as Bodhisattvas. And some high
lamas have named figures like Mary or Lincoln as emanations
of Chenresig.

Well, to me this is nonsense at all. Buddhahood means having reached the 3 Bodies and the 5 Wisdoms. I don't think Mary (you mean of course the Virgin Mary, right?) and Lincoln have ever displayed this realization. I'm convinced these "high lamas" have no idea who actually were the people they listed like this. Honestly, this is bullsh*t for Westerners.

We have faith that a lot of beings have attained Buddhahood, thence generating nirmankayas for the benefit of beings throughout various realms and the universe. That isn't Bullshit for Westerners. Well, where are they? All in Asia in red robes? I kinda doubt that. We have no way of knowing which of the people we encounter in our lives are emanations.

[Sherlock]

Could everyone please go ? Maybe a mod could split the discussion about Aro. Would anyone also happen to know about any tertons in Western or Central Tibet?

Historically, Jigme Lingpa practiced at Samye Chimphu. But I have not heard of any who live in these areas currently. Inside the so-called Tibetan Autonomous Region (TAR), which includes all of central Tibet and part of Kham, the PRC rules are much tighter, and lamas are continually monitored by Chinese and Tibetan government spies. I don't know how auspicious that would be for treasure revelation.

Adzom Paylo Rinpoche seems to have a residence in Lhasa but maybe he doesn't live there long-term. I think there might be some tertons active there but since there are difficulties with communication there anyway people living outside might not have much opportunities to hear about them.

[ratna]

Historically, Jigme Lingpa practiced at Samye Chimphu. But I have not heard of any who live in these areas currently. Inside the so-called Tibetan Autonomous Region (TAR), which includes all of central Tibet and part of Kham, the PRC rules are much tighter, and lamas are continually monitored by Chinese and Tibetan government spies. I don't know how auspicious that would be for treasure revelation.

I don't know about tertons as such, but the Chimphu site is full of caves where important termas have been taken out, and there are lots of retreatants in them.

R

[Karinos]

on topic of emanations:

from H.H. Dalai Lama "Talk on Reincarnation" from Sept 2011

The Emanation Body is three-fold: a) the Supreme Emanation Body like Shakyamuni Buddha, the historical Buddha, who manifested the twelve deeds of a Buddha such as being born in the place he chose and so forth; b) the Artistic Emanation Body which serves others by appearing as craftsmen, artists and so on; and c) the Incarnate Emanation Body, according to which Buddhas appear in various forms such as human beings, deities, rivers, bridges, medicinal plants, and trees to help sentient beings. Of these three types of Emanation Body, the reincarnations of spiritual masters recognized and known as ‘Tulkus’ in Tibet come under the third category.

Src: http://blog.tsemtulku.com/tsem-tulku-ri ... -lama.html
(this was published earlier also on HHDL www but later removed)

I remember also several masters saying that emanation bodies are everywhere in plenty and don't need to be "Buddhists" to fulfill Bodhisattva aspirations.

[Dharmaswede]

Sure. Nobody's saying the contrary. I still want to see some Buddhas outside Buddhism...

Some would argue Jesus achieved a rainbow body, possibly practiced something like tonglen on the cross etc.

I have no personal opinion in that particular matter, but feel in general that there are teachers and role models in all cultures that are advanced way beyond myself.

Jens

[Konchog1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Nj6bs47gE&t=1m0s

[JKhedrup]

Part of the problem in debating these issues is that an internet forum is not really the most appropriate place to discuss Tantric Practices. With the pledges of secrecy involved in these practices, discussion can only ever be limited.

[simhanada]

It has been brought to our (the general public and members reading this forum) attention once again that there are doubts about NCR authenticity. Following links on this page, you'll see the letters with translations and scanned images from various lamas. For me and many others, seeing these is enough evidence, but I have to admit I don't need such evidence to learn from any lama. For me the actual insight from the method of practice itself is proof enough. YMMV naturally in this case.

What if one finds out that those "letters" were faked/forged. What then. Speaks volumes to the forgers credibility.

[JKhedrup]

Please be aware posters that no matter what side of this issue you stand on, allegations need to be based on some sort of evidence.
Mudslinging back and forth does not accomplish anything and quickly degrades into personal attacks. If this happens the thread will be closed.

[JKhedrup]

Since it seems there is not much new information being presented and the discussion is becoming heated tit for tat exchanges I am going to lock the thread for a day or so, to cool things off a bit. I will consult with the other moderators about when to re-open it.

UPDATE: I am going to clean up the thread a bit including removing some off-topic posts at the request of the <correction> poster of those replies. I will let you know about whether there has been a decision to re-open the thread soon.

UPDATE: I have removed the direct responses to those deleted posts to make the thread more coherent. If there are any issues please PM me.

[JKhedrup]

The topic has been unlocked. Please do feel free to discuss "Cotemporary Tertons of Eastern Tibet". Please be kind to each other and keep the language moderate, not giving into the desire to engage in personal attacks when anger arises.

Enjoy the discussion!

[dorjeshonnu]

if you have a buddhist view and methods, you can wake up
if you do not have a buddhist view and method, you can not wake up

it does not matter what title you give this view, its methods, or wakefulness

vajrayana buddhist views and methods require a valid unbroken lineage of transmission
a teacher who instructs in buddhist views but corrupts the standards of vajrayana cannot help but function as a mara
a teacher who can not explain why a non-buddhist view will not produce wakefulness can not function as a buddhist teacher

protectors preserving the vajrayana lineages are present precisely so as to limit these maras
dakinis preserving the vajrayana teachings are present precisely to make sure the correct revealer receives each gter.ma
collegiality preserving the vajrayana sangha in general and practitioner samaya in particular is present for precise clarity regarding standards

many people will display worldly accomplishments - these can come from concentration, pacts with maras, and the ripening of former positive actions
worldly accomplishments are no guarantee that a person is an appropriate teacher, is a buddhist teacher, or especially is a vajrayana buddhist teacher

a person who is involved with a false teacher has no samaya with that person
there is no samaya with that person as samaya depends upon valid lineage
it does not matter how many years a person is devoted to a false teacher

a dog's tooth can produce great positive merit
wakefulness does not rely on great positive merit
only form bodies rely on great positive merit
when there is no wisdom body, there are no form bodies
wisdom body relies on view, methods, and wakefulness

even dgongs.gter can not rely purely on the faith enabled by a dog's tooth

this wakefulness is not merely some trick of a practitioner's mind
it is a complete and perfect cessation, with or without remainder

[etinin]

According to the Madhyamika, it is possible to achieve liberation without buddhism. Pratyekabuddhas actually manage it in a kalpa where no buddha has been born. They are not full buddhas, though, as they do have relatively limited compassion and are not omniscient.

[Konchog1]

According to the Madhyamika, it is possible to achieve liberation without buddhism. Pratyekabuddhas actually manage it in a kalpa where no buddha has been born. They are not full buddhas, though, as they do have relatively limited compassion and are not omniscient.

Pratyekabuddhas are mentioned in the Tripitaka too I believe.

[dorjeshonnu]

According to the Madhyamika, it is possible to achieve liberation without buddhism. Pratyekabuddhas actually manage it in a kalpa where no buddha has been born. They are not full buddhas, though, as they do have relatively limited compassion and are not omniscient.

not completely accurate

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Pratyekabuddha