Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

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Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby zangskar » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:11 pm

While looking for information on some places in Kham I found mention of a very interesting sounding PhD thesis on a blog called Ngakpa update (http://ngakpa-update.org/antonio-terron ... g-lo-terma), that I thought might interest others:
Bya rog prog zhu, The raven crest : the life and teachings of bDe chen 'od gsal rdo rje treasure revealer of contemporary Tibet
Author: Antonio Terrone

Abstract:This research starts from the historical assertion that notwithstanding their claim of increased religious tolerance, the dramatic post-Mao political campaigns have continued to weaken the pervasive force of religious faith, traditional monastery-centered religious power, religious leadership, and education, motivated by the perceived threat of potential subversive anti-government activities. This research maintains that within such a socio-political landscape and the revivalist wave in the cultural and religious sphere, a number of Tibetan rNying ma leaders are advancing charisma-based authority to promote the growth of alternative rNying ma centers of ritual and meditative instruction. In revitalizing this and other forms of traditional religious practices, they are galvanizing some of the most significant forces of today’s Buddhist practice in selected areas of Khams and mGo log of eastern Tibet. In this dissertation I examine the Treasure revelation movement as it is active in present-day cultural and ethnic regions of Tibet in the PRC. More specifically, I will explore the role of Treasure revealers in the religious world of today’s Tibet. One way this research will accomplish this is by introducing a case study, the life and activities of bDe chen ’od gsal rdo rje (b. 1921) a well-known Buddhist master, visionary, and Treasure revealer who currently lives in Shar mda’ in Nang chen county in the Yushu Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture (TAP). A corpus of Tantric scriptures (probably composed under visionary inspiration by Tibetan Buddhist masters) including texts on rDzogs chen or Great Perfection, meditation manuals, prayers, and various rituals began to appear in tenth-century Tibet. The first Treasure revealer, however, whose works we have access to is the famed twelfth-century mNga’ bdag nyang ral nyi ma ’od zer (1136-1204). Since he and other Treasure revealers appeared in Tibet, the larger phenomenon of Treasure revelations has apparently continued to flourish. In modern Tibet Treasure revealers still possess indisputable reputation and social status in the religious sphere.


The dissertation is available from Leiden University:
https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/handle/1887/14644

More related articles from the authors webpage:
http://www.religion.northwestern.edu/fa ... rrone.html

Best wishes
Lars
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby username » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:06 pm

The ngakpa site like the nyingma.com or Buddhism for vampires by Chapman & his group are all thinly disguised PR fronts for the Aro people. The main function for them is to lure in people through these webs. Their English leader claims to be a terton now. Before he and his top men denied this on forums. He has a strategic alliance with the American leader of flaming jewel group who also tells his followers he is a terton & reacted angrily when he was told the Dalai lama did not recognize him as the tulku of Do Khyentse and said the Dalai lama should not interfere in Nyingma! Needless to say no master has recognized his or the Aro leader as tulkus. Both do not speak Tibetan after decades and know less than a teenage monk. They spend some money in Pemako Region to some Tibetans & use those for their PR & need for money.

The Aro group contribute financially to their leader. All the dead masters on their sites, from Chimed Rigzin to Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche became wrathful with him in the end and told him to stop his claims and teachings. Another master pictured on their site was threatened to be sued by him. Also the claimed lineage is denied by all masters as fictional. There were various revelations about their group on bbs/Web from the 90's by ex members.

He claims some of the stuff like what he saw in red lettering is not his invention but genuinely from other beings. I think so too but what beings? Dudjom rinpoche decades before in his terma predicted one of the false terma by a false terton, one of the worst things ever, in this degenerate age soon will be called Aro. The academic names in the link are most likely not Aro like Chapman himself. Before joining any groups newcomers will be wise to do some research about the validity of any lineage as well as unusual claims. Basically it is best to research a lot before committing to any unusual self appointed 'master' and always be rational, logical, moderate & safe with major decisions.

The best source on the subject of tertons is Hidden Teachings of Tibet: An Explanation of the Terma Tradition of Tibetan Buddhism by tulku Thondup. The above paper is also interesting as is the book and papers by Andreas Doctor.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby dakini_boi » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:27 pm

username wrote:Dudjom rinpoche decades before in his terma predicted one of the false terma by a false terton, one of the worst things ever, in this degenerate age soon will be called Aro.


Could you please cite the source for this?
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby username » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:35 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
username wrote:Dudjom rinpoche decades before in his terma predicted one of the false terma by a false terton, one of the worst things ever, in this degenerate age soon will be called Aro.


Could you please cite the source for this?

New Dudjom Tersar collection recited by another master.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby zangskar » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:54 pm

username wrote:The ngakpa site like the nyingma.com or Buddhism for vampires by Chapman & his group are all thinly disguised PR fronts for the Aro people. The main function for them is to lure in people through these webs. Their English leader claims to be a terton now.

I didn't know that. I just thought I would cite where I had found the link to this thesis, I wasn't aiming to advertise for the blog as such.
I haven't read the phD thesis yet, but are you saying that this phD thesis is some sort of veiled propaganda for this Aro organization? The main case of the thesis is a TIBETAN terton born in Eastern Tibet in 1921, and still living there, as far as I can see. Seems like legitimate nearly 400 pages of scholarship.

EDIT: sorry Now I see you refer to the thesis as 'the 'paper' at the end of the post. Any moderator can remove the link to the blog for my sake, I was not intending to cause any problems. :)
Best wishes
Lars
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby username » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:04 pm

No I said the academic reference was most likely unrelated & elsewhere said the paper was interesting. Anyway I am glad you posted the link as freedom of information & expression is not only oxygen for spreading awareness but a sacred principle that should be defended even for those we disagree with as Voltaire said.
PS. Just saw your edit.
Best wishes.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby dakini_boi » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:21 pm

username wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:
username wrote:Dudjom rinpoche decades before in his terma predicted one of the false terma by a false terton, one of the worst things ever, in this degenerate age soon will be called Aro.


Could you please cite the source for this?

New Dudjom Tersar collection recited by another master.


Dudjom Tersar is pretty big, but I believe it's all on the TBRC. If you could cite the specific textual location for that claim, it would help out, as most of the arguments for or against Aro are based on hearsay that is difficult to verify (i.e. what so-and-so master has said).
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby username » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:40 pm

Their followers can travel to India & Nepal and verify for themselves, despite the numerous false PR online, from the loved ones of Chimed Rigzin Rinpoche & recently before he passed away Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche if the fellow was often told to stop & failing those warnings then banished, or not, for themselves. I will not name any one else or have anything else to say nor feel compelled to persuade any adult who should according to vajrayana investigate thoroughly before committing.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby mmm » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:42 pm

I saw in Bodhgaya this year a monk from Namdrolling shedra who had a short sadhana of Tara with ganachakra puja revealed only two or three years ago by an unknown terton. And Gyalse Tulku said there are nowadays around forty tertons in Golok or Amdo I dont remember. bye
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby Yudron » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:59 am

username wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:
username wrote:Dudjom rinpoche decades before in his terma predicted one of the false terma by a false terton, one of the worst things ever, in this degenerate age soon will be called Aro.


Could you please cite the source for this?

New Dudjom Tersar collection recited by another master.


This is a new claim I haven't heard before. Another claim I have heard is that there was a negative prediction by Dudjom Lingpa in his sung bum (collected works). I haven't been able to verify this. Can you say what lama told you this? I'm not arguing with you about the validity of the aro ter, at all, but it makes me uncomfortable to have anonymous people make claims about something in the Tersar tradition without citation.

The dissertation cited is really excellent and interesting, and has absolutely nothing to do with the Aro Ter.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby username » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:09 am

Yudron wrote:This is a new claim I haven't heard before. Another claim I have heard is that there was a negative prediction by Dudjom Lingpa in his sung bum (collected works). I haven't been able to verify this. Can you say what lama told you this? I'm not arguing with you about the validity of the aro ter, at all, but it makes me uncomfortable to have anonymous people make claims about something in the Tersar tradition without citation.

The dissertation cited is really excellent and interesting, and has absolutely nothing to do with the Aro Ter.


As I said, for his friends/followers it is best to ask the loved ones of the dead masters they widely use for recruitment & fundraising publicity about his banishment & on the Aro so-called "Ter":
username wrote:I will not name any one else or have anything else to say nor feel compelled to persuade any adult who should according to vajrayana investigate thoroughly before committing.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby Yudron » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:53 pm

You know, I've found the Tibetan lamas don't care at all about the western lamas we all criticize. The stories they know about some other Asian lamas are so much worse, they make our guys look like no big deal at all.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby username » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:28 am

"False Termas: Reverse Effect of Practice of Some Termas:
The reason contrary and inauspicious results occur when
some Termas are practiced is that there are false discovered
teachings. In particular there are false texts that look like
Terma script, and which are by false Tertons, the rebirths of
wrongly aspiring evil ministers (*) of the ancient time who
have the support of certain demonic spirits as the protectors
of those Termas. Such teachings belong to demonic forces.
By reciting and practicing those false teachings the follower
will move only in the wrong direction.
(* Evil ministers, Dud Ion (bDud Blott): While Guru
Padmasambhava was establishing Buddhism in Tibet until it
reached its peak, many esoteric teachings were concealed
for the future. Powerful but wrongly inspired
ministers, people and spirits made evil aspirations to
corrupt the Terma teachings by discovering false Termas
in the future. That is why false Termas are discovered in
Tibet from time to time as counterparts to the positively
effective and precious Termas.)...

THE REASON WHY NEGATIVE ASPIRATIONS WERE
MADE BY EVIL MINISTERS, ETC.:
Negative aspirations were made by evil ministers in order
to obstruct the enlightened activities of Guru Rinpoche. If
disciples of the profound Termas of Guru Rinpoche who
have the desire to achieve supreme attainment are fooled
into mistaking these false teachings for pure teachings, and
if they practice them, it will cause the decline of their
fortunes, their life, and so on. If any short-sighted people
who have no desire to attain a perpetual goal (enlightenment)
should practice these false teachings, then for the
time being it might seem to be helpful for increasing life,
majesty and the power of speech, but (eventually) those
teachings will become a cause of samsara and hell for them."

-Hidden teachings of Tibet: An explanation of the Terma
tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, Wisdom Publications,
1986, 1997 by Tulku Thondup Rinpoche, disciple of
Dodrupchen Rinpoche & Chimed Rigzin Rinpoche
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
username
 
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby T. Chokyi » Wed Sep 26, 2012 7:47 pm

username wrote:The ngakpa site like the nyingma.com or Buddhism for vampires by Chapman & his group are all thinly disguised PR fronts for the Aro people. The main function for them is to lure in people through these webs. Their English leader claims to be a terton now. Before he and his top men denied this on forums. He has a strategic alliance with the American leader of flaming jewel group who also tells his followers he is a terton & reacted angrily when he was told the Dalai lama did not recognize him as the tulku of Do Khyentse and said the Dalai lama should not interfere in Nyingma! Needless to say no master has recognized his or the Aro leader as tulkus. Both do not speak Tibetan after decades and know less than a teenage monk. They spend some money in Pemako Region to some Tibetans & use those for their PR & need for money.

The Aro group contribute financially to their leader. All the dead masters on their sites, from Chimed Rigzin to Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche became wrathful with him in the end and told him to stop his claims and teachings. Another master pictured on their site was threatened to be sued by him. Also the claimed lineage is denied by all masters as fictional. There were various revelations about their group on bbs/Web from the 90's by ex members.

He claims some of the stuff like what he saw in red lettering is not his invention but genuinely from other beings. I think so too but what beings? Dudjom rinpoche decades before in his terma predicted one of the false terma by a false terton, one of the worst things ever, in this degenerate age soon will be called Aro. The academic names in the link are most likely not Aro like Chapman himself. Before joining any groups newcomers will be wise to do some research about the validity of any lineage as well as unusual claims. Basically it is best to research a lot before committing to any unusual self appointed 'master' and always be rational, logical, moderate & safe with major decisions.

The best source on the subject of tertons is Hidden Teachings of Tibet: An Explanation of the Terma Tradition of Tibetan Buddhism by tulku Thondup. The above paper is also interesting as is the book and papers by Andreas Doctor.


Any comments about this email I received today?
Here comes "Aro" too Orgyen Dorje Den, which is a Yeshe Nyingpo center.

Back on Esangha there were lots of warnings about this group, especially from many of the mods there and Henry.
Malcolm (Namdrol on Esangha) who had something more to say about this Lama having a falling out with his teacher Yeshe Dorje who was also one of Malcolms teachers, this was the Dalai Lama's Weather Maker. I'm pretty sure that someone will remember better than I do, the long posts that concerned this group.

They were not known back then as a legit group, but a kind of cult, I'm wondering if what username was saying above,
still goes today?

I was more than surprised to get this email in my email box today from orgyendorjeden@gmail.com :

Subject of the email:
@ODD: Aro Gar presents Ngak'chang Rinpoche, Oct. 15, 2012, 7 pm

Aro Gar presents: Ngak'chang Rinpoche

Wisdom Eccentrics: Tales from the Nyingma Yogic Tradition:
A talk by Ngak'chang Rinpoche

Monday, October 15, 2012, 7:00 p.m
at Orgyen Dorje Den 2244 Santa Clara Ave. Alameda, CA 94501

The email included a big picture of the couple (below) and said beneath the picture:
"Ngak'chang Rinpoche with his wife and fellow lama Khandro Déchen"

These are the same people that username is referring to in his post above, right?

Ngak'chang Rinpoche will speak on the yogic tradition in Tibetan Buddhism, both as a way of life and as personal encounter.
The gö-kar chang-lo'i dé is the sangha of nonmonastic ordained practitioners, whose outwardly visible vows include wearing white skirts and not cutting the scalp hair. Rinpoche will describe contemporary masters he has met who have been living embodiments of this tradition.

Suggested Donation: $20
No one will be turned away for lack of funds.
For more information, please visit the Aro website: http://arobuddhism.org

Ngak'chang Rinpoche:
Ngak'chang Rinpoche, also known as Ngakpa Chögyam Rinpoche, is the holder of the Aro gTér, a small family lineage in the Nyingma tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. The Aro gTér is especially concerned with integrating meditation practice with ordinary life. It is a lineage that emphasizes the importance of women practitioners, and its teachings include a wealth of yogic songs. Ngak'chang Rinpoche is English and is well known for his brilliant, penetrating, and humorous use of language. Recent books include Wisdom Eccentrics, published in 2011. Books written with his wife and teaching partner Khandro Déchen include E-mailing the Lamas from Afar and Entering the Heart of the Sun and Moon, both published in 2009.

Contact: Carl Grundberg, cgrundberg@earthlink.net, 510/704-9267

Another question: Does this Lama claim to be a Terton like username is saying?

Yudron, Malcolm, some of the "old timers" recommend or not?

:sage: ?
Attachments
aro.jpg
That them?
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby Yudron » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:16 am

T. Chokyi wrote:
username wrote:The ngakpa site like the nyingma.com or Buddhism for vampires by Chapman & his group are all thinly disguised PR fronts for the Aro people. The main function for them is to lure in people through these webs. Their English leader claims to be a terton now. Before he and his top men denied this on forums. He has a strategic alliance with the American leader of flaming jewel group who also tells his followers he is a terton & reacted angrily when he was told the Dalai lama did not recognize him as the tulku of Do Khyentse and said the Dalai lama should not interfere in Nyingma! Needless to say no master has recognized his or the Aro leader as tulkus. Both do not speak Tibetan after decades and know less than a teenage monk. They spend some money in Pemako Region to some Tibetans & use those for their PR & need for money.

The Aro group contribute financially to their leader. All the dead masters on their sites, from Chimed Rigzin to Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche became wrathful with him in the end and told him to stop his claims and teachings. Another master pictured on their site was threatened to be sued by him. Also the claimed lineage is denied by all masters as fictional. There were various revelations about their group on bbs/Web from the 90's by ex members.

He claims some of the stuff like what he saw in red lettering is not his invention but genuinely from other beings. I think so too but what beings? Dudjom rinpoche decades before in his terma predicted one of the false terma by a false terton, one of the worst things ever, in this degenerate age soon will be called Aro. The academic names in the link are most likely not Aro like Chapman himself. Before joining any groups newcomers will be wise to do some research about the validity of any lineage as well as unusual claims. Basically it is best to research a lot before committing to any unusual self appointed 'master' and always be rational, logical, moderate & safe with major decisions.

The best source on the subject of tertons is Hidden Teachings of Tibet: An Explanation of the Terma Tradition of Tibetan Buddhism by tulku Thondup. The above paper is also interesting as is the book and papers by Andreas Doctor.


Any comments about this email I received today?
Here comes "Aro" too Orgyen Dorje Den, which is a Yeshe Nyingpo center.

Back on Esangha there were lots of warnings about this group, especially from many of the mods there and Henry.
Malcolm (Namdrol on Esangha) who had something more to say about this Lama having a falling out with his teacher Yeshe Dorje who was also one of Malcolms teachers, this was the Dalai Lama's Weather Maker. I'm pretty sure that someone will remember better than I do, the long posts that concerned this group.

They were not known back then as a legit group, but a kind of cult, I'm wondering if what username was saying above,
still goes today?

I was more than surprised to get this email in my email box today from orgyendorjeden@gmail.com :

Subject of the email:
@ODD: Aro Gar presents Ngak'chang Rinpoche, Oct. 15, 2012, 7 pm

Aro Gar presents: Ngak'chang Rinpoche

Wisdom Eccentrics: Tales from the Nyingma Yogic Tradition:
A talk by Ngak'chang Rinpoche

Monday, October 15, 2012, 7:00 p.m
at Orgyen Dorje Den 2244 Santa Clara Ave. Alameda, CA 94501

The email included a big picture of the couple (below) and said beneath the picture:
"Ngak'chang Rinpoche with his wife and fellow lama Khandro Déchen"

These are the same people that username is referring to in his post above, right?

Ngak'chang Rinpoche will speak on the yogic tradition in Tibetan Buddhism, both as a way of life and as personal encounter.
The gö-kar chang-lo'i dé is the sangha of nonmonastic ordained practitioners, whose outwardly visible vows include wearing white skirts and not cutting the scalp hair. Rinpoche will describe contemporary masters he has met who have been living embodiments of this tradition.

Suggested Donation: $20
No one will be turned away for lack of funds.
For more information, please visit the Aro website: http://arobuddhism.org

Ngak'chang Rinpoche:
Ngak'chang Rinpoche, also known as Ngakpa Chögyam Rinpoche, is the holder of the Aro gTér, a small family lineage in the Nyingma tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. The Aro gTér is especially concerned with integrating meditation practice with ordinary life. It is a lineage that emphasizes the importance of women practitioners, and its teachings include a wealth of yogic songs. Ngak'chang Rinpoche is English and is well known for his brilliant, penetrating, and humorous use of language. Recent books include Wisdom Eccentrics, published in 2011. Books written with his wife and teaching partner Khandro Déchen include E-mailing the Lamas from Afar and Entering the Heart of the Sun and Moon, both published in 2009.

Contact: Carl Grundberg, cgrundberg@earthlink.net, 510/704-9267

Another question: Does this Lama claim to be a Terton like username is saying?

Yudron, Malcolm, some of the "old timers" recommend or not?

:sage: ?


Orgyen Dorje Den rents out their facility to outside groups when it is not in use for their events. This is an outside event.

Typically, people talk about an anonymous lama who said that Dudjom Lingpa, not Dudjom Rinpoche, predicted a false terma tradition called Aro. This seems to be the Vajrayana equivalent of an urban legend; no one is ever able to cite the text referred to.

I'm not endorsing Ngakpa Chogyam, but I do find myself irritated by people citing this text that probably does not exist.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby T. Chokyi » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:47 am

Yudron wrote:
Orgyen Dorje Den rents out their facility to outside groups when it is not in use for their events. This is an outside event.

Typically, people talk about an anonymous lama who said that Dudjom Lingpa, not Dudjom Rinpoche, predicted a false terma tradition called Aro. This seems to be the Vajrayana equivalent of an urban legend; no one is ever able to cite the text referred to.

I'm not endorsing Ngakpa Chogyam, but I do find myself irritated by people citing this text that probably does not exist.


Thank you Yudron.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:14 am

I don't know anything about that dissertation mentioned in the OP or if it's related to the socalled Aro Ter.

But the Aro Ter is a fake. They claim to be the only real students of the late Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche, but they didn't even go to his cremation. During his last years, Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche has not left out an opportunity to publicly state that his students James Low and Gudrun Knausenberger have his permission to give initiations. He never ever said that Ngakpa Chogyam has his permission to give initiations.

The students of Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche in Vienna unanimously report that during one teaching or initiation in Vienna (must have been around 1998) Chhimed Rigdzin has publicly stated that two Englishmen had come to him, asking for his permission to give initiations and that he had not granted them that permission.

Amongst other stuff Ngagpa Chogyam claims that one of his books was accepted as a dissertation which is unfounded. People who knew him and Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche at that time report that his book was never accepted as a dissertation. Of course this will be rejected as hearsay by his followers, but if Ngakpa Chogyam really has a Ph.D. why doesn't he prove it? - Apart of the fact that accepting a book as a dissertation after it has already been published would be against any academic standards Ngakpa Chogyam has never proven his claim by showing his certificate.

Chogyam also claims to be a Terton. He has a crystal ball he found somewhere and which he claims is a Terma, but Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche never confirmed this crystal ball as a Terma. I have spoken with a person who has accompanied Chhimed Rigdzin at that time and who was present during that interview when Chogyam came to Chhimed Rigdzin with that crystal ball. This person has confirmed that Chhimed Rigdzin has not acknowledged that crystal ball as a Terma. Of course this will also be rejected as hearsay, slander or mud-slinging. But everybody can investigate this matter and speak to the close students of Chhimed Rigdzin Rinpoche by themselves.

There also is a recording where Chhimed Rigdzin mentions this crystal ball and says if that would be a Terma you could obviously buy thousands of Termas if you have enough money, but he wouldn't cheat and lie in this way.

I cannot upload this file here, because the extension .mp3 is not allowed for attachments on this board.
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby Kunzang » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:17 am

Typically, people talk about an anonymous lama who said that Dudjom Lingpa, not Dudjom Rinpoche, predicted a false terma tradition called Aro. This seems to be the Vajrayana equivalent of an urban legend; no one is ever able to cite the text referred to.

I'm not endorsing Ngakpa Chogyam, but I do find myself irritated by people citing this text that probably does not exist.


If I recall correctly, back on e-sangha, Malcolm said that an acquaintance of his had attended a retreat with Namkha Rinpoche who gave a reading transmission of Dudjom's works (I don't recall which Dudjom) and Namkha Rinpoche came across the passage in question and was shocked.

Namkha Rinpoche (http://www.namkha.org/index.php?option= ... Itemid=167) was the lama who supposedly recognized Stuart Kirkpatrick as the tulku of Do Khyentse Rinpoche, giving him the name Traktung Rinpoche. For a while Traktung's sangha and Aro sangha were "confederate" sanghas but they seem to have had a falling out. Additionally, Traktung and Namkha had a falling out as well (from his biography: "Rumours have been around from a Western Lama proclaiming that Namkha Rinpoche is one of his disciples. There is no reason for Namkha Rinpoche to have root teachers other than Dungse Trinley Norbu Rinpoche, and other Root Lamas he had in Tibet, so these rumours are hereby disconfirmed.') On Traktung's old website it used to say that Namkha Rinpoche had accepted Traktung as his root lama, so that's what that statement is denouncing.

Is there an electronically searchable version of Dudjom's works? If so, could someone search for this supposed "Aro" quote.

Another question: Does this Lama claim to be a Terton like username is saying?


Not directly. He claims to be the reincarnation of the son of "Aro Lingma" who is supposed to have discovered the Aro terma; he claims to have remembered the termas and the history of Aro Lingma through dreams. However, outside of Aro's sources, as far as anyone has been able to discover there is no record of any such person as Aro Lingma or any such terma.

T. Chokyi, we "old-timers" hashed this stuff out well before e-sangha on the Tricycle Boards before that version of their forum got deleted (I don't know if there's an archive anywhere, but the discussion lasted for the better part of a year with senior Aro members participating as well) and most of us are wary to dredge it up again in any detail as it always generates a lot of acrimony.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby Yudron » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:59 am

Kunzang wrote:
Typically, people talk about an anonymous lama who said that Dudjom Lingpa, not Dudjom Rinpoche, predicted a false terma tradition called Aro. This seems to be the Vajrayana equivalent of an urban legend; no one is ever able to cite the text referred to.

I'm not endorsing Ngakpa Chogyam, but I do find myself irritated by people citing this text that probably does not exist.


If I recall correctly, back on e-sangha, Malcolm said that an acquaintance of his had attended a retreat with Namkha Rinpoche who gave a reading transmission of Dudjom's works (I don't recall which Dudjom) and Namkha Rinpoche came across the passage in question and was shocked.

Namkha Rinpoche (http://www.namkha.org/index.php?option= ... Itemid=167) was the lama who supposedly recognized Stuart Kirkpatrick as the tulku of Do Khyentse Rinpoche, giving him the name Traktung Rinpoche. For a while Traktung's sangha and Aro sangha were "confederate" sanghas but they seem to have had a falling out. Additionally, Traktung and Namkha had a falling out as well (from his biography: "Rumours have been around from a Western Lama proclaiming that Namkha Rinpoche is one of his disciples. There is no reason for Namkha Rinpoche to have root teachers other than Dungse Trinley Norbu Rinpoche, and other Root Lamas he had in Tibet, so these rumours are hereby disconfirmed.') On Traktung's old website it used to say that Namkha Rinpoche had accepted Traktung as his root lama, so that's what that statement is denouncing.

Is there an electronically searchable version of Dudjom's works? If so, could someone search for this supposed "Aro" quote.

Another question: Does this Lama claim to be a Terton like username is saying?


Not directly. He claims to be the reincarnation of the son of "Aro Lingma" who is supposed to have discovered the Aro terma; he claims to have remembered the termas and the history of Aro Lingma through dreams. However, outside of Aro's sources, as far as anyone has been able to discover there is no record of any such person as Aro Lingma or any such terma.

T. Chokyi, we "old-timers" hashed this stuff out well before e-sangha on the Tricycle Boards before that version of their forum got deleted (I don't know if there's an archive anywhere, but the discussion lasted for the better part of a year with senior Aro members participating as well) and most of us are wary to dredge it up again in any detail as it always generates a lot of acrimony.


Well, at least the lama is named now. No, there is not a searchable version of either Dudjom Lingpa's sungbum or Dudjom Rinpoche's sungbum. I can't say this passage doesn't exist, but no one has been able to say anything about what volume or context he found this in. I'd be really curious if someone wants to ask this lama if he can remember what edition and volume he found it in. There are several versions of the DL sungbum around these days--the Bhutanese is the best.

Look, I did my own personal thorough investigation into the Ngakpa Chogyam story, including discussions with people who were close to him or his teachers long ago, etc... The results were what you would imagine. However, Tibetan lamas really aren't concerned about this person. They're concerned about their own scoundrels, who are much worse.

Let's look at the bigger question: how many people in this whole world are really qualified to be gurus? When the older generation of Tibetan lama's has completely died off, what will we be left with? Yes, there are thousands of Tibetan men with tulku titles, or lama titles based on their family line, or khenpos who have memorized lots of texts but have not brought their practice to completion, or people who have been given the lama title for merely completing three years in a group retreat. Credentials? One one level.. who cares! How many so-called lamas really unite knowledge, practice, and actual realization and have the personality and character to be a teacher as well?

It's a dark time, where most of us lack the courage to really take the path to it's conclusion. Why point the finger elsewhere, when we could be pointing it at ourselves.
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Re: Contemporary tertons of Eastern Tibet

Postby muni » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:50 am

Yudron wrote:[
It's a dark time, where most of us lack the courage to really take the path to it's conclusion. Why point the finger elsewhere, when we could be pointing it at ourselves.


Grasping, samsara its' tendencies to see faults in others and so miss to see own suffering, lacking love, compassion, joy. Habits are shooting others who are wrong, the mental fabricated ego, the boss of all the enemies is protected like a golden egg.

Thanks Yudron, happy for your genuine concern. :anjali:
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