Dorje Drolo and Vajrakilaya

[borat]

What is difference among practice Dorje Phurba and Dorje Drolo in activity? How work these practices?
Is it true Dorje Drolo is more wrathful than Vajrakilaya?

[muni]

Since internet forums cannot replace the master regarding these practices, still some general information:

Vajrakīlaya is a wrathful form of Vajrasattva, the pure vajra nature of Enlightenment. In this imagery, the Compassion of the Buddhas is expressed forcefully, to eradicate in a powerful way the entrenched ignorance and emotional afflictions which cause obstacles, interfering with auspicious circumstances and preventing the dawning of realisation.

http://www.pemayoedling.org/Vajrakilaya.htm


"Guru Dorje Drolo is the crazy wrathful Buddha of the degenerate era. He has no regular pattern to his wrath. He is completely out of order!" He is a manifestation of crazy wisdom. He is an ecstatic manifestation of Padmasambhava, the deity Dorje Drolo embodies the forces of insight and compassion beyond logic and convention. Invoking in the practitioner the fearlessness and spontaneity of the awakened state, Dorje Drolo transforms hesitancy and clinging into enlightened activity. Dorje Drolo's energy overcomes distinctions of life and death, representing instead a continual process of giving birth to new circumstances and possibilities. Padmasambhava manifested as Dorje Drolo at numerous pilgrimage places in order to subvert indigenous Tibetan beliefs in demons and malevolent gods, redirecting their powerful energies toward the path of wisdom and compassion. Dorje Drolo, the subverter of demons, looks very wrathful. He has fangs, an overbite, and three eyes. He wears Tibetan boots, a chuba and monk's robes, two white conch shell earrings, and a garland of severed heads. His hair is bright red and curly, giving off sparks. To show how truly crazy he is, he dances on the back of a pregnant tigress, surrounded by flames which signifies the latent power of our intrinsic Buddha Nature. The tigress is often depicted as also dancing, so that everything is in motion. Dorje Drolo had 5 dakini consorts/acolytes who he worked with and engaged in tantric practice with.

This Buddha is not your typical serene, passive Buddha. He is dynamic and brings calm and enlightenment in unconventional ways.
http://www.turtlehill.org/khen/eman.html

[borat]

nobody knows?:((

[dakini_boi]

Drolo - Padma family - Lama (root of blessings)

Kilaya - Karma family (enlightened activity) - Yidam (root of siddhis)

take from that what you will
i think it mostly depends on your connection, lineage, gurus, etc. both obviously very important wrathful forms in nyingma, for dispelling outer/inner/secret obstacles

[Nemo]

There is a practice that combines both.

Guru Drag-purba

[Kunzang]

There is a practice that combines both.

Guru Drag-purba

Are you sure? I thought Guru Dragpur was a combination of Guru Dragpo and Phurba (Vajrakilaya).

[Josef]

There is a practice that combines both.

Guru Drag-purba

Are you sure? I thought Guru Dragpur was a combination of Guru Dragpo and Phurba (Vajrakilaya).

Dragpo is another Guru Rinpoche manifestation like Drolo.

They are similar in many ways.

[Pema Rigdzin]

There is a practice that combines both.

Guru Drag-purba

Are you sure? I thought Guru Dragpur was a combination of Guru Dragpo and Phurba (Vajrakilaya).

In a teaching of ChNN which I read not too long ago, Rinpoche described Guru Dragphur as the union of all wrathful Buddhas.

[Blue Garuda]

There is a practice that combines both.

Guru Drag-purba

Are you sure? I thought Guru Dragpur was a combination of Guru Dragpo and Phurba (Vajrakilaya).

Dragpo is another Guru Rinpoche manifestation like Drolo.

They are similar in many ways.

I believe that Dragpo combines Hayagriva, Vajrapani and Garuda. I think sometimes this is called 'Threefold Wrathful One' in the Nyenpa Lha Sum empowerment.

Dragphur (Tragphur) also combines those three deities plus Yangdag Heruka and Vajrakilaya. In all 5 deities combined, but does not include Drollo.

I don't think Drolo (Drollo/Drolod) is a combination of other deities, but is depicted with a Garuda.

Both are very wrathful manifestations of Padmasambhava and deal with obstructions to practice and harmful spirits such as certain Gyalpos.

[pema tsultrim]

I think two of the first replies taken together are helpful:

Kilaya: Wrathful Vajrasattva, Karma or Vajra Family, focus of practice is eliminating obstacles through wrathful means, esp. purification of anger and negative karma.

Dorje Drollo: Wrathful Guru Rinpoche (the form in which he concealed many of his Termas), Pema Family, focus of practice is elimination of obstacles through crazy wisdom, also through subduing demonic forces (Dud-dul).

I know this is a long post, but maybe the following is of interest to someone. If I am incorrect on anything here, someone please correct me!

Kilaya Tantras originate from the Oddiyana Dakini Lekyi Wangmo, to Prabahasti (one of the Eight Vidyadharas of India) and on to Guru Rinpoche, and thus are both Kama and Terma.
Dorje Drollo I believe is mostly, if not exclusively a Terma practice (if it is even possible for that to be the case).

Vajrakilaya practice is extremely common in Nyingma monasteries as an extensive Drupchen prior to Losar to remove obstacles for the coming year (and presumably to purify negative karma from the past year?) As far as I know Drollo is not as universally an annual practice, though in some lineages and western Dharma centers it is. At Palyul Namdroling Monastery in S. India, there is a temple dedicated entirely to Vajrakilaya. I have fond memories of the monks in the temple pounding the drums and metal khangling horns shredding through the morning air like a crazed swarm of mutant bees in a lightning storm. Terrifying and comforting at the same time (terrifying to my ego and comforting to my buddhanature perhaps?). This was a common puja performed not only in the Drupchen, but whenever it was requested by a sponsor and maybe on the 29th day of each month (also common to do with protectors on that day). I also recently had a very powerful experience after doing a single concise Vajrakilaya practice that convinced me of the power of that deity to remove obstacles. If you feel you would benefit from hearing the story, I feel there would be no fault in sharing it (no meditative realizations or anything like that, but eerily significant events around it). Also witnessed an amazing display at a Vajrakilaya empowerment with H.H. Penor Rinpoche in Pharping, Nepal in 2005.

At the Pema Osel Ling retreat center of Lama Tharchin and H.H. Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche in California there is a Dudul Chorten (basically a Dorje Drollo Stupa). Also the 50 ft. Zuni Mountain Stupa is a Dudul Chorten in N.W. New Mexico but in a different architectural style. Both contain thousands of Dorje Drollo Tsa Tsas inside the vase in order to pacify negative forces in the degenerate age.

Zuni Mountain Stupa, NM


Dorje Drollo Stupa at P.O.L., CA

My lama Bhakha Rinpoche , a Dudjom lineage holder who served Dudjom Rinpoche closely for many years, has imparted the following about Dorje Drolö practice:

The wrathful practice of Dorje Drolö is critically important in pacifying all the negative circumstances that we face in today's world. Since the whole spectrum of Buddhadharma teachings and its essence is love, compassion, and wisdom, this wrathful practice is not just the expression of some sort of ordinary rage; rather, it is the pinnacle practice of compassion and wisdom underlying the practice of Buddhadharma at its most profound level. Therefore, for the sake of all sentient beings, particularly in this degenerate time, this practice is a very powerful and immediately effective way of bringing peace and harmony to the world. This particular sadhana, called “The Vital Essence Sadhana of Dudjom T'hak-T'hung Pema,” was H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche's heart essence; by doing this practice, Dudjom Rinpoche overcame many obstacles and gained long life.


Ven. Bhakha Rinpoche with H.H. Dudjom Yangsi (Nepal, 2011)

I should add that since 2000 or 2001, Bhakha Rinpoche's sanghas in California had done a weekend Vajrakilaya intensive prior to Losar every year, up until last year. Last year, Rinpoche instead led a Dorje Drollo intensive before losar. Take from that what you will. The previous Fall as well, Rinpoche led a Dorje Drollo retreat at the Zuni Mtn. Stupa which was so well attended they didn't have room to fit everyone inside the stupa and it was apparently quite a show. I haven't had the fortune of practicing D.D. or attending any D.D. puja anywhere so I have no first hand comments of the practice. Rinpoche is on the recovery from a stroke last winter (please pray for his long life and excellent health) so it is tentative, but he is supposed to be leading another D.D. weekend at the Zuni Mtn. Stupa this September. If you're interested, visit http://www.zunimountainstupa.org Bhakha Rinpoche has been stressing Dorje Drollo practice more and more in recent years, and there must be a reason...

Last thing I'll say, regarding Duru Dragpo vs. Guru DragPhur vs. Duru Dorje Drollo, they are certainly related in terms of all being wrathful G.R. Some termas have Drollo, some have Dragpo, some have DragPhur (or Guru Gragpo PhurJuk (Kilaya-Tail or Lower-Body Kilaya). In the Longchen Nyingthig cycle, the only wrathful G.R. practice is Lama Dragpo Ta-Kyhung Barwa, which is a combined manifestation of Guru Dragpo, Hayagriva and Garuda. Very powerful practice for overcoming obstacles, specifically disease and spirit harm from nagas. Relatively speaking, while Guru Dragpo and Dorje Drollo are distinct forms, in the actual words of the Takhyung Barwa sadhana Guru Dragpo is referred to as Dorje Drowo Lod (Drollod)...so hmmm.... (BTW if I am in dangerous waters regarding discussing these things, please tell me. I don't want to do anything wrong.) Similar practices exist in which Guru Dragpo (the Guru Rinpoche aspect) is replaced with Vajrapani. This is called Ta-Chag-Khyung-Sum (Tamdrin=Hayagriva, Chagna-Dorje=Vajrapani, Khyung=Garuda) in the Dudjom Tersar tradition and I think there is a Gelugpa version, too. So...each have their own unique story, appearance, origin and power, and in many ways are similar but are in fact distinct in certain ways, too. I guess karma determines our connection to one variant or another????

BTW I'm really not trying to show off here even though it seems like it. I happen to find all this stuff incredibly fascinating, and love these types of discussions. Simultaneously impresses and irritates the heck out of my wife, which is why I do this stuff at 1:30 am!

Love,

P.T.

[Blue Garuda]

I have practised Nyenpa Pha Sum (Vajrapani, Hayagriva, Garuda) for some time (empowerment from DzogchenRinpoche) and lately have practised Guru Tragphur which adds Yangdak Heruka and Vajrakilaya as a follower of ChNNR. I'l play devil's advocate and ask for some clairifcation:

When were these 'combination' deities first mentioned in history?

The combinatiions are interesting but is there really a huge advantage over the practise of say, wrathfu Vajrapani ?

Being a form of Padmasambhava is positive, but what is added compared with, again, wrathful Vajrapani?

What is quoted above about 'Dorje Drolö' is similar to the script of pretty much all wrathful deity empowerments I've received - this is the most powerful deity for removing inner outer and secret obstacles, illness, harm from spirits etc etc.

Surely any one of these wrathful deities does the same job, and what really matters is your faith or confidence when performing the practice.

A question - I note that Dorje Drollo appears with a Garuda - is the Garuda part of a combination or a secondary but separate deity?

[pema tsultrim]

I have practised Nyenpa Pha Sum (Vajrapani, Hayagriva, Garuda) for some time (empowerment from DzogchenRinpoche) and lately have practised Guru Tragphur which adds Yangdak Heruka and Vajrakilaya as a follower of ChNNR. I'l play devil's advocate and ask for some clairifcation:

When were these 'combination' deities first mentioned in history?

The combinatiions are interesting but is there really a huge advantage over the practise of say, wrathfu Vajrapani ?

Being a form of Padmasambhava is positive, but what is added compared with, again, wrathful Vajrapani?

What is quoted above about 'Dorje Drolö' is similar to the script of pretty much all wrathful deity empowerments I've received - this is the most powerful deity for removing inner outer and secret obstacles, illness, harm from spirits etc etc.

Surely any one of these wrathful deities does the same job, and what really matters is your faith or confidence when performing the practice.

A question - I note that Dorje Drollo appears with a Garuda - is the Garuda part of a combination or a secondary but separate deity?

Hi Blue,

I don't know when the combo-yidams were first mentioned. It's an interesting question. I have an index of the Rinchen Terdzod and Pema Ledrel Tsal (who was born as early as 1231, the immediate reincarnation of Princess Pemasel and predecessor to Longchenpa and Pema Lingpa) revealed a Nyenpo Lha Sum terma. If that's the earliest terma version, we could say at that time, or we could say with Guru Rinpoche, or we could say earlier if there is mention of them in original tantras found in the Nyingma Gyud Bum or Nyingma Kama. But really they originate with Samantrabhadra Yab Yum so it's moot!

I totally agree with you on your point that comes down to depth of faith. This can often come more easily if we have a karmic connection. It is impossible to say there is any more or less effective yidam for pacifying obstacles (or any enlightened activity for that matter). The peaceful yidam Green Tara can be just as effective as the wrathful Vajrakilaya or Dorje Drollo for clearing obstacles. Maybe that's why there is also a Tara Temple at Namdroling, a stone's throw away from the Kilaya Temple We can point to a scripture for every deity that states, "this deity is the most effective for ____________ in this degenerate age," or "there is no more effective practice than this for achieving _____________." Actually, the latter wording is more common and very true. Because every deity is as powerful as every other deity, than you cannot say there is a MORE powerful deity than X, Y, or Z. Equally true for all of them.

That's why I said at the end of my long rambling post that it comes down to karmic connection. That's how each of us gets our personal yidam. If we had a karmic link with a practice in a previous lifetime, perhaps, or our lama sees that we would identify better with one or another deity, or we just feel that connection more clearly with one deity rather than another, it's not a better deity... but it might be better FOR US!

In fact, one time I asked Bhakha Rinpoche what yidam I should practice. He replied, " You can do whatever practice you like... what do you like?" I told him of two I had been considering, and he said, "you can practice the second one." I said, "OK."

Not sure about the Garuda in Drollo thangkas. Garuda is almost always present above the head of Vajrakilaya as well...at least in the six armed, three headed form with consort and phurba held between joined palms. In solitary form or in Phur-juk form I'm not sure. In Takhyung Barwa, Guru Dragpo is holding a garuda in flames, and a vajra, and in his hair is a horse head and a garuda head. Above him is also Hayagriva and above Hayagriva is a Garuda. Perhaps Garuda is present above Drollo as an "externalized" way of demonstrating Drollo's View of Dzogpa-Chenpo and the ability to subdue and destroy demonic forces like Nagas, etc. (similar to how G.R.'s khatvanga is simply an external symbol of his consort Tsogyal who is always unified with him in his total realization...)

PT

[Blue Garuda]

Hi Blue,

I don't know when the combo-yidams were first mentioned. It's an interesting question. I have an index of the Rinchen Terdzod and Pema Ledrel Tsal (who was born as early as 1231, the immediate reincarnation of Princess Pemasel and predecessor to Longchenpa and Pema Lingpa) revealed a Nyenpo Lha Sum terma. If that's the earliest terma version, we could say at that time, or we could say with Guru Rinpoche, or we could say earlier if there is mention of them in original tantras found in the Nyingma Gyud Bum or Nyingma Kama. But really they originate with Samantrabhadra Yab Yum so it's moot!

I totally agree with you on your point that comes down to depth of faith. This can often come more easily if we have a karmic connection. It is impossible to say there is any more or less effective yidam for pacifying obstacles (or any enlightened activity for that matter). The peaceful yidam Green Tara can be just as effective as the wrathful Vajrakilaya or Dorje Drollo for clearing obstacles. Maybe that's why there is also a Tara Temple at Namdroling, a stone's throw away from the Kilaya Temple We can point to a scripture for every deity that states, "this deity is the most effective for ____________ in this degenerate age," or "there is no more effective practice than this for achieving _____________." Actually, the latter wording is more common and very true. Because every deity is as powerful as every other deity, than you cannot say there is a MORE powerful deity than X, Y, or Z. Equally true for all of them.

That's why I said at the end of my long rambling post that it comes down to karmic connection. That's how each of us gets our personal yidam. If we had a karmic link with a practice in a previous lifetime, perhaps, or our lama sees that we would identify better with one or another deity, or we just feel that connection more clearly with one deity rather than another, it's not a better deity... but it might be better FOR US!

In fact, one time I asked Bhakha Rinpoche what yidam I should practice. He replied, " You can do whatever practice you like... what do you like?" I told him of two I had been considering, and he said, "you can practice the second one." I said, "OK."

Not sure about the Garuda in Drollo thangkas. Garuda is almost always present above the head of Vajrakilaya as well...at least in the six armed, three headed form with consort and phurba held between joined palms. In solitary form or in Phur-juk form I'm not sure. In Takhyung Barwa, Guru Dragpo is holding a garuda in flames, and a vajra, and in his hair is a horse head and a garuda head. Above him is also Hayagriva and above Hayagriva is a Garuda. Perhaps Garuda is present above Drollo as an "externalized" way of demonstrating Drollo's View of Dzogpa-Chenpo and the ability to subdue and destroy demonic forces like Nagas, etc. (similar to how G.R.'s khatvanga is simply an external symbol of his consort Tsogyal who is always unified with him in his total realization...)

PT

Thanks. Those are very useful and clear answers.

I think karmic connection with a specific Guru also entails a karmic connection with the deities they use in their own practice and offer to their students.

However, it needs stressing to beginners that they don't need a wide selection of practices.

It's good to know that certain deities have specific functions, for example for healing. If one has the empowerment, it is there as a practice to use when needed, if we have confidence in its efficacy.

However, it seems quite common for Westerners to seek to accumulate a large number of, for example, Action Tantra deity practices in the Gelug tradition. Eventually they are offered a narrower selection at HYT level, and all are ecompassed within, for example Vajrayogini & Chakrasambhava.

I've always had a very strong connection with Garuda and to a lesser extent with Vajrapani, and In terms of Nyingma practices this has led to Nyenpa Lha Sum (Vajrapani Hayagriva Garuda) and lately to Guru Dragphur (Tragphur).

As you say, ultimately we have Samantabhadra Yab Yum.

Yes, I think in the Nyingma images I've seen, Garuda is mostly depicted above a deity's head as an indicator of that deity's connection with Dzogchen. This is quite different from his role as a deity alone or within a combined deity form in dealing with obstructions and spirits etc..

I think it is wise to follow what feels right and at the same time to heed the advice of the Guru you regard as your Root Guru. If your Root Guru recommends a particular Yidam then I think it is essential to follow that practice in the way he recommends and see where it leads. perhaps

Thanks for the answers.

Perhaps then the real answer to the OP is that there is no real difference except in the appearance and in the practitioner's confidence in a Yidam, preferably guided in terms of practice by a Guru rin whom he also has confidence.

[Malcolm]

sparks. To show how truly crazy he is, he dances on the back of a pregnant tigress...

One, the tigress is a Bon deity, named Ati muwer -- oral communucation, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

Two, the tigress is not pregnant, she is in her first heat -- oral communication, Khenpo Jigme Phunstok

[kirtu]

Two, the tigress is not pregnant, she is in her first heat -- oral communication, Khenpo Jigme Phunstok

What does "first heat" mean?

Kirt

[Blue Garuda]

Two, the tigress is not pregnant, she is in her first heat -- oral communication, Khenpo Jigme Phunstok

What does "first heat" mean?

Kirt

Having her first menstrual cycle.

Animals who are 'on heat' are ripe for mating.

[pema tsultrim]

Perhaps then the real answer to the OP is that there is no real difference except in the appearance and in the practitioner's confidence in a Yidam, preferably guided in terms of practice by a Guru rin whom he also has confidence.

Well spoken, Blue. This feels right. Don'tcha love when longwinded conversations reveal the answer to be so simple?

PT.

[kirtu]

Two, the tigress is not pregnant, she is in her first heat -- oral communication, Khenpo Jigme Phunstok

What does "first heat" mean?

Kirt

Having her first menstrual cycle.

Animals who are 'on heat' are ripe for mating.

You mean "in heat" of course.

I didn't know that there were multiple menstrual cycles that were differentiated somehow - unless Malcolm means the tigresses first heat ever?

At any rate the tigress is, as you noted, ripe for mating. Really adds intensity to the practice.

Kirt

[kirtu]

Perhaps then the real answer to the OP is that there is no real difference except in the appearance and in the practitioner's confidence in a Yidam, preferably guided in terms of practice by a Guru rin whom he also has confidence.

There is a difference just like there is a difference between VK and Vajrapani although they are both in essence the same.

Dorje Drollo really is a crazy, unpredictable manifestation. The practice could burn away a good deal of your own karma in unexpected ways. VK is much safer and non-harmful to the practitioner.

Kirt

[Blue Garuda]

Perhaps then the real answer to the OP is that there is no real difference except in the appearance and in the practitioner's confidence in a Yidam, preferably guided in terms of practice by a Guru rin whom he also has confidence.

There is a difference just like there is a difference between VK and Vajrapani although they are both in essence the same.

Dorje Drollo really is a crazy, unpredictable manifestation. The practice could burn away a good deal of your own karma in unexpected ways. VK is much safer and non-harmful to the practitioner.

Kirt

I think we covered the main differences earlier, and reached a conclusion that each person will find one practice more efficacious than another according to past karma etc. In other words.........it depends.

Bearing in mind the nature of Drollo, how can he help you destroy negative karma vipaka in ways other deity practices cannot? (Treat as a 'Tantra Talk' question and respond via PM if public discussion would be inappropriate. )

Talking of burning away, I'm surprised Vajradaka doesn't pop up in conversation much. Maybe someone should try to raise his profile a bit.