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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:48 am 
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justsit wrote:
Nemo wrote:
Isn't it a bit ironic posting that?

So what you are saying is ignore the problem, blame ourselves and it will go away?


Not exactly. If Andrew had turned off Twitter, stayed off KPC related sites, and refused to play at the onset, this would likely not have escalated to the level of stupidity that it has. So yes, now he shares the blame. They threw the hook, he bit. He admitted as much.

The lojong slogans are useful as tools that show how to transform poison into medicine. Just my opinion. If they don't work for you, don't use them.


So you're saying if I'd gone offline and abandoned the people who were relying on me to help them I could easily have resolved the whole situation.

I didn't go on any KPC related sites. They came to my site, and they interfered with my friends and made it almost impossible for me to communicate online..

And no, I didn't admit anything except that I might have thrown a little more sass their way than necessary.

That's hardly a reason for me to put myself on the same level as a child rapist like "Palzang," who did, by the way, rape a child while he was stalking me. Oh. You didn't know about "Palzang"?

Sorry my skirt was so short. Obviously, if I hadn't been shaking my ass, I wouldn't have gotten raped. Oh well. There's always some religious excuse for everything.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:55 am 
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justsit wrote:
Nemo wrote:
Isn't it a bit ironic posting that?

So what you are saying is ignore the problem, blame ourselves and it will go away?


Not exactly. If Andrew had turned off Twitter, .


I'm utterly appalled.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:58 am 
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Malcolm wrote:

Kirt, Let me ask. Have you had Kensho?

Or Satori?

"Nope."

It's all just a religious, idealistic concept to you, isn't it?

Are you not behaving in mistaken way, by telling any other person they are behaving in a mistaken way?

Look into it clearly. You're missing something here, and it could be important for you to find out what it is.

Andrew


Here, I should say, this is unproductive.[/quote]

Quote quote quote.

Look, if somebody is going to say, "I know you haven't had kensho because of the way you talk," I'm quite interested. How do you know? Have you had kensho?

It seems like a simple and unremarkable question, unless we invest kensho with religious significance -- then it becomes a personal attack.

But I don't invest kensho with any religious significance whatsoever. I'm just curious. Has Kirt had it? If he has, I'm interested. If he hasn't, I'm wondering how he knows whether anyone else has had it or not.

What are the infallible signs of someone having had kensho?

This is an interesting topic for a Dharma discussion board. Maybe much more interesting than the depredations of a group of cultists.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:00 am 
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mujushinkyo wrote:

What are the infallible signs of someone having had kensho?

This is an interesting topic for a Dharma discussion board. Maybe much more interesting than the depredations of a group of cultists.



Just saying, it is easy for people to say anything.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:08 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:

What are the infallible signs of someone having had kensho?

This is an interesting topic for a Dharma discussion board. Maybe much more interesting than the depredations of a group of cultists.



Just saying, it is easy for people to say anything.


That's true!

Listen, the only reason I invest Kensho with any significance is that it does liberate people to be happier. I've seen it happen in others. I'm happy.

It's hard to get across to anyone just what this is, because people want to know instead what it "means." It doesn't mean anything. It's just waking up to the glory of This. If it were a religious issue -- a personal possession, an attainment of "holiness" -- we could argue about who has it and who doesn't.

This is actually basic to the cult stalking I experienced. The cultists were enraged that I said I'd had kensho. Enraged.

There's no way to convince anybody of what they refuse to accept, but if there's someone who claims they know the difference between a person who's had satori and who hasn't, let's hear it!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:12 am 
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mujushinkyo wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:

What are the infallible signs of someone having had kensho?

This is an interesting topic for a Dharma discussion board. Maybe much more interesting than the depredations of a group of cultists.



Just saying, it is easy for people to say anything.


That's true!

Listen, the only reason I invest Kensho with any significance is that it does liberate people to be happier. I've seen it happen in others. I'm happy.

It's hard to get across to anyone just what this is, because people want to know instead what it "means." It doesn't mean anything. It's just waking up to the glory of This. If it were a religious issue -- a personal possession, an attainment of "holiness" -- we could argue about who has it and who doesn't.

This is actually basic to the cult stalking I experienced. The cultists were enraged that I said I'd had kensho. Enraged.

There's no way to convince anybody of what they refuse to accept, but if there's someone who claims they know the difference between a person who's had satori and who hasn't, let's hear it!


I personally have no idea what satori is. All I know is what my primordial state is.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:16 am 
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Malcolm wrote:

I personally have no idea what satori is. All I know is what my primordial state is.


That's what it is.

But satori is what happens if "you" are ever unlucky enough to stray in an illusory way from your primordial state and then suddenly rejoin it with an anti- illusory big bang.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:19 am 
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mujushinkyo wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

I personally have no idea what satori is. All I know is what my primordial state is.


That's what it is.

But satori is what happens if "you" are ever unlucky enough to stray in an illusory way from your primordial state and then suddenly rejoin it with an anti- illusory big bang.



That used to happen. Now it does not happen anymore because I am not separate from that knowledge.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:21 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

I personally have no idea what satori is. All I know is what my primordial state is.


That's what it is.

But satori is what happens if "you" are ever unlucky enough to stray in an illusory way from your primordial state and then suddenly rejoin it with an anti- illusory big bang.



That used to happen. Now it does not happen anymore because I am not separate from that knowledge.


Is it knowledge? This is a serious question. Because I describe it more as a sort of wild unfocused stumbling, like a drunken bee in a California poppy.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:25 am 
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mujushinkyo wrote:

Is it knowledge? This is a serious question. Because I describe it more as a sort of wild unfocused stumbling, like a drunken bee in a California poppy.



I don't know Zen at all. I am a Dzogchen practitioner. I know what my state is. For the most part I am connected with that state. It is based on personal experience.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:29 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:

Is it knowledge? This is a serious question. Because I describe it more as a sort of wild unfocused stumbling, like a drunken bee in a California poppy.



I don't know Zen at all. I am a Dzogchen practitioner. I know what my state is. For the most part I am connected with that state. It is based on personal experience.


Yes! I don't know Zen at all either. Don't think I'm asking about Zen or Dzogchen. I was just asking about the direct experience, because it intrigues me.

Not a challenge or a demand -- or anything of the sort

As you know, I expect. Because if we're talking about the same thing, we needn't have our discussion "here" at all -- we can meet anytime in Infinity.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:43 am 
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mujushinkyo wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:

Is it knowledge? This is a serious question. Because I describe it more as a sort of wild unfocused stumbling, like a drunken bee in a California poppy.



I don't know Zen at all. I am a Dzogchen practitioner. I know what my state is. For the most part I am connected with that state. It is based on personal experience.


Yes! I don't know Zen at all either. Don't think I'm asking about Zen or Dzogchen. I was just asking about the direct experience, because it intrigues me.

Not a challenge or a demand -- or anything of the sort

As you know, I expect. Because if we're talking about the same thing, we needn't have our discussion "here" at all -- we can meet anytime in Infinity.


If you are interested, you should check out Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, my teacher. He does many free and open webcasts every year. Open does not mean "less profound". Usually, when something is restricted, it is less profound, and more connected with Vajrayāna methods rather than pure Dzogchen.

This is the best thing.

Otherwise, the best thing I can say is: that direct experience is based on direct introduction by a qualified teacher (These days most Dzogchen teachers will be very interested in having you sign on as a Buddhist, but not ChNN). Having received direct introduction, then there are many methods to come to be free of doubt about one's primordial state. Once one is free of doubt, one ceases to worry about buddhahood that is a result of practice and effort, since it does not exist.

M

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:56 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
If you are interested, you should check out Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, my teacher. He does many free and open webcasts every year. Open does not mean "less profound". Usually, when something is restricted, it is less profound, and more connected with Vajrayāna methods rather than pure Dzogchen.

This is the best thing.

Otherwise, the best thing I can say is: that direct experience is based on direct introduction by a qualified teacher (These days most Dzogchen teachers will be very interested in having you sign on as a Buddhist, but not ChNN). Having received direct introduction, then there are many methods to come to be free of doubt about one's primordial state. Once one is free of doubt, one ceases to worry about buddhahood that is a result of practice and effort, since it does not exist.

M


Hey, I love Namkhai Norbu and I spent two years doing his Cycle of Day & Night -- actually, I'm still doing it in more subtle ways.

More evidence that we've already met in Infinity.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:02 am 
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justsit wrote:
Nemo wrote:
Isn't it a bit ironic posting that?

So what you are saying is ignore the problem, blame ourselves and it will go away?


Not exactly. If Andrew had turned off Twitter, stayed off KPC related sites, and refused to play at the onset, this would likely not have escalated to the level of stupidity that it has. So yes, now he shares the blame. They threw the hook, he bit. He admitted as much.

The lojong slogans are useful as tools that show how to transform poison into medicine. Just my opinion. If they don't work for you, don't use them.


Posts like this are cringeworthy.

You have become an enabler. It's very sad.

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I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:15 am 
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mujushinkyo wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
mujushinkyo wrote:

What are the infallible signs of someone having had kensho?

This is an interesting topic for a Dharma discussion board. Maybe much more interesting than the depredations of a group of cultists.



Just saying, it is easy for people to say anything.


That's true!

Listen, the only reason I invest Kensho with any significance is that it does liberate people to be happier. I've seen it happen in others. I'm happy.


Actually initially great universal compassion arises spontaneously and continues for quite a while. Happiness per se is not a characteristic. At least it wasn't of my experience. Happiness per se is also not a noted experience of kensho experiences as published (for example in The Three Pillars of Zen appendix).

Quote:
This is actually basic to the cult stalking I experienced. The cultists were enraged that I said I'd had kensho. Enraged.


Look, please don't obsese over these people. As I said, if they did something illegal then take legal action, etc. Otherwise just pursue your bodhi activity.

The people at KPC only know about Vajrayana and then most of them only from a particular perspective. Most of them have no understanding of the Zen experience at all. None. Their level of understanding at best is characterized by asserting that zazen is calming meditation (shamatha) and never goes beyond that. Who cares whether they were "enraged" or not? If they were "enraged", one of the reasons would be that they confuse kensho with enlightenment. In Tibetan Buddhism there is a strong tendency to regard claims of enlightenment in a sceptical, and possibly hostile, light. The Tibetan Buddhist treatment of enlightenment and the Zen treatment of enlightenment are different. However even in Zen claims of kensho are treated sceptically and in recent times are basically not taken seriously it seems. This may be a reaction to Yasutani Roshi's overemphasis of kensho and/or the tendency to confuse kensho with just confused experiences. Kensho is life altering but people can walk away from it. It's nothing more than briefly lighting the candle of enlightenment allowing a person to glimpse the room briefly.

Quote:
There's no way to convince anybody of what they refuse to accept, but if there's someone who claims they know the difference between a person who's had satori and who hasn't, let's hear it!


Actually satori is questionable. None of my teachers ever claimed to have experienced satori and then there's this discussion in Soto Zen about strong and weak satori, etc. Just as fire can be inferred from smoke, satori can be inferred from one's personal experience and by others from observed behavior. However a person who experiences satori directly knows the interdependence of al beings (not the same thing as the outplaying of karma), spontaneous universal compassion will have arisen and will be the dominant element of the individual, and they will not be self-centered and gradually their wisdom will grow. Also they will always, always be motivated for the rest of their lives to fulfil bodhisattva activity and cultivate compassion and help beings (this will happen spontaneously without them necessarily knowing anything about bodhisattvas). Using the candle of enlightenment example above, satori is when the candle doesn't go out, but the candle light itself might be weak. So actually satori, weak satori, isn't the enlightenment of Shakyamuni per se as claimed in Zen (deep satori could be though) but is more like the Path of Joining or possibly the 1st Bhumi as outlined in the Stages and Path system. There are however Zen people who deny a distinction between weak and strong satori.

Actually there is quite a bit of literature about satori from the old Buddhas if you want to read it. There isn't a lot of material on kensho itself from the old Buddhas. Apparently they didn't think it so important.

Kirt

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:23 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
Nemo wrote:
Isn't it a bit ironic posting that?

So what you are saying is ignore the problem, blame ourselves and it will go away?


Hence the Tibetan Instutional Response (TIR). Lojong teachings are often used as Mind Control. Milarepa had good reason to call Dromton a demon.


Well clearly lojong should not be misused in that way. As for "Tibetan Institutional Response" , that is something that we do not need to adopt in the west.

Kirt

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:01 pm 
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I don't think that when the Karmapa goes to visit the Dalai Lama they argue about who's more enlightened.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:35 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
If you are interested, you should check out Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, my teacher. He does many free and open webcasts every year. Open does not mean "less profound". Usually, when something is restricted, it is less profound, and more connected with Vajrayāna methods rather than pure Dzogchen.


A wise man said recently;

Malcolm wrote:
According to ChNN, the idea of a "pure Dzogchen" is a mistake. He also says we need to understand our practice in terms of the unity of the three inner tantras. Dzogchen is how we practice those three inner tantras.

N


But here you are again back to "pure dzogchen".

/magnus

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:42 pm 
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heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
If you are interested, you should check out Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, my teacher. He does many free and open webcasts every year. Open does not mean "less profound". Usually, when something is restricted, it is less profound, and more connected with Vajrayāna methods rather than pure Dzogchen.


A wise man said recently;

Malcolm wrote:
According to ChNN, the idea of a "pure Dzogchen" is a mistake. He also says we need to understand our practice in terms of the unity of the three inner tantras. Dzogchen is how we practice those three inner tantras.

N


But here you are again back to "pure dzogchen".

/magnus


By "pure Dzogchen"I simply mean from the three series of Dzogchen proper, rather than the result vehicle approach.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:55 pm 
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kirtu wrote:

Actually satori is questionable. None of my teachers ever claimed to have experienced satori and then there's this discussion in Soto Zen about strong and weak satori, etc. Just as fire can be inferred from smoke, satori can be inferred from one's personal experience and by others from observed behavior. However a person who experiences satori directly knows the interdependence of al beings (not the same thing as the outplaying of karma), spontaneous universal compassion will have arisen and will be the dominant element of the individual, and they will not be self-centered and gradually their wisdom will grow. Also they will always, always be motivated for the rest of their lives to fulfil bodhisattva activity and cultivate compassion and help beings (this will happen spontaneously without them necessarily knowing anything about bodhisattvas). Using the candle of enlightenment example above, satori is when the candle doesn't go out, but the candle light itself might be weak. So actually satori, weak satori, isn't the enlightenment of Shakyamuni per se as claimed in Zen (deep satori could be though) but is more like the Path of Joining or possibly the 1st Bhumi as outlined in the Stages and Path system. There are however Zen people who deny a distinction between weak and strong satori.

Actually there is quite a bit of literature about satori from the old Buddhas if you want to read it. There isn't a lot of material on kensho itself from the old Buddhas. Apparently they didn't think it so important.

Kirt


Ha ha!

Kirt, you are going to be wonderfully surprised when it happens to you, because it's absolutely nothing like all these words -- nor does it fit into the "Buddhist playbook."

And while you're still laughing, after you finish crying, I hope you'll laugh a little more remembering this conversation and the fact that I told you so!

regards,

Andrew


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