Dharma practice is a placebo.

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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat May 05, 2012 7:49 pm

It's not a matter of your statements not being of value Ron. And at this point I will have to agree with Dechen (and I am a native English speaker), the problem is that most times it is too difficult to filter through all the meanderings in order to get the point (when there is one) of what you are saying. It's not that what you write is not valid or interesting, it's just that many times it is impossible to understand what you are trying to say. This is not due to what you write, but the way that you write it.

Unfortunately, for me, this means that most times when I see a post written by you I don't go the effort of reading it, mainly because reading it is not a guarantee of understanding it. And when your explanations are obtuse as your original statements, well... :smile:

Again, it's not what you are saying it's how you are saying it that is the problem. Now if you are happy to keep saying it like you do and leaving us all dumbfounded then please ignore what I just wrote and, like they used to say back in the 70's: "keep on truckin'!" ;)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sat May 05, 2012 8:23 pm

Greg expressed my feelings exactly.
Part of communicating is making sure the other side gets the message you want to convey, you see? I'm saying I don't. I'm sorry to say, but I find quite tiresome having to decipher your long posts when they are written in such manner. I'm sure with a little effort you could be more clear.
But if you don't feel concerned about it and think it's my problem, what can I say? I'll simply skip your posts.
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby ronnewmexico » Sat May 05, 2012 8:31 pm

Yes certainly these sorts of discussions on this thread this subject matter is not intended for you nor DN. DN challenged me quite pointedly so I responded. My fashion of response does not fit a certain criteria....oh well.

Really a sort of thread I may engage you two on would be the thread on the death of that 38 year old guy. Not this no...it is nuanced by subject matter it must be.

No offense and it is not a matter of being better nor worse, dim or witty advanced or not.... it is a matter of ways of communication on things of importance....I certainly take no offense whatsoever if none reads this or that I write. I write as I write.....some.... muni on this thread.... seem to appreciate it.
You think it indecipherable....OK, I have not a problem with that...read it not or say it is, it is not my concern.

A find myself and way of talking quite entertaining. I am quite happy with myself. I could change things if I saw need. ONly compassion would show need to me....plainly speaking neither you nor DN particularly impress me in that regard so I will not make a effort to please.
Sometimes covert but mainly overt compassion.....that incites me to act in any sort of ways....I just don't see it in you two. Sorry I don't.

And I am not saying I am that way...only that is what incites me to act to please..rarely anything else. I personally am most noncompassionate.

Skip them...skip them all they are not for you.

Muni for one...she displays overt compassion invariably. Some others do here as well, but mainly it is rare.
And muni and I seem to be communicating.....so I am glad.
If muni did not understand what I wrote I would go to any and every extend to explain it in all sorts of fashion.
No personal offense but in my world and my way of thinking you two are not like me and do not deserve that extend.

Really I communicate infrequently here last being on this board January 13th I think.....so it is not to much to just ignore me when I am here.
I find what I say has great value and is said correctly....you do not....OK.

Invariably I will be shortly gone again...mainly I came to thank Will for his help and that is now done(on a help thread).
I see some compassionate peoples here...I may stay longer, as only they interest me..sorry that is as I am.
The others I mean them of course no harm but I have nothing much to say to them.
I can do nothing for them, and really find them very very boring(actually they make me really truly want to vomit to be plain). It does not matter but is fact. ME or them it matters not who really....it is as it is.

Would I be boring then to myself...probably :smile: In solitary I find that not so, anything but, finding all this and me fascinating.... but if I was to converse with myself on a internet board...maybe so. :smile: In person as well I do avert noncompassionate peoples, they bore me and make me sleepy. I don't make myself sleepy alone by myself so that is quite curious. Overtly ego driven peoples..make me want to vomit...in person when I am around them, no matter how witty or intelligent.

So I am very deficient in many regard....but it is as I am.
No matter at all really...I will be gone this time I suspect very very soon.
The forest calls to me.I must not dawdle, Time as human it is so short.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat May 05, 2012 8:53 pm

:rolling:

You kill me Ron! Just that I'll never know the cause of death! :smile:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby ronnewmexico » Sun May 06, 2012 12:32 am

Now that is funny.

I do have a sense of humor and appreciate good quality humor(by my take of course). That which speaks to the angst of common existence. This of course being a solely personal opinion and thusly without real qualifier.
Most humor is compassionate in basis I'd guess.
Some not, as in a poor fellow falling over something. Not funny as I read it but most funny to many.
I'd guess many here.

Oh this usually fattish oaf walks into a room and falls over something, perhaps he is tripped....ha ha ha very very funny.....to each their own.
Stuffed in a room with such peoples laughing away at such a thing I get quite sick and must leave immediately. At best I may endure it...... :smile:
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun May 06, 2012 1:27 am

Well, I would be happy to skip this post of yours, but this time you wrote things that need to be commented.

ronnewmexico wrote:Yes certainly these sorts of discussions on this thread this subject matter is not intended for you nor DN. DN challenged me quite pointedly so I responded. My fashion of response does not fit a certain criteria....oh well.

Who are you to say that this or that discussion is not for me or Greg? This is a public forum, so you don't get to say such things. The discussions are for those who choose to participate in good faith and abiding by the ToS. Are we clear? I hope so.

Really a sort of thread I may engage you two on would be the thread on the death of that 38 year old guy. Not this no...it is nuanced by subject matter it must be.

The moment you place a post in a public topic without specifically addressing someone, you are engaging all the participants. So they may answer back. You don't get to kick and run, see? Keep that in mind.

No offense and it is not a matter of being better nor worse, dim or witty advanced or not.... it is a matter of ways of communication on things of importance....I certainly take no offense whatsoever if none reads this or that I write. I write as I write.....some.... muni on this thread.... seem to appreciate it.
You think it indecipherable....OK, I have not a problem with that...read it not or say it is, it is not my concern.

I noticed your concern for people lacks a lot of equanimity, but that's your problem.

A find myself and way of talking quite entertaining. I am quite happy with myself. I could change things if I saw need.

I noticed that. Now you should note that this is not your playground. You are participating in a public forum. As such we appreciate if you try to be clear in the messages you post. Intentionally writing in a cryptic manner is impolite towards participants who struggle to understand what you say. Has it occurred to you that such style of writing may be disruptive? You post a lot and place long messages. If they are all written like this, don't you think people will start skipping them? And if people start skipping them while they keep coming, don't you think there will be a point where they may be considered disruptive to the topic? Perhaps there is the need for you to change things and you are failing to see it.


ONly compassion would show need to me....plainly speaking neither you nor DN particularly impress me in that regard so I will not make a effort to please.

So, we are not worthy of your compassion because we don't particularly impress you. Sweet! This is getting better and better, Ron.

Sometimes covert but mainly overt compassion.....that incites me to act in any sort of ways....I just don't see it in you two. Sorry I don't.

Thanks for your opinion. I'm sure both me and Greg realize we still have a long way to go. At least we realize that...

And I am not saying I am that way...only that is what incites me to act to please..rarely anything else. I personally am most noncompassionate.

You bet you are! There should be a law against people torturing others by writing like that! :lol: I'm joking here, just in case you don't notice.

Skip them...skip them all they are not for you.

Then, please, at the beginning of the post address them specifically to the person you are writing to. Otherwise we must assume you are directing your posts to everyone. We will see if that flies.

Muni for one...she displays overt compassion invariably. Some others do here as well, but mainly it is rare.

Yes, muni is cool.
And muni and I seem to be communicating.....so I am glad.

After reading the exchange between you too I'm not sure communication would be my definition of what is happening, but whatever...

If muni did not understand what I wrote I would go to any and every extend to explain it in all sorts of fashion.
No personal offense but in my world and my way of thinking you two are not like me and do not deserve that extend.

Yes, you already said that. No offense taken. I for one am glad I am not like you, so you are giving me a compliment and don't even know it.

Really I communicate infrequently here last being on this board January 13th I think.....so it is not to much to just ignore me when I am here.
I find what I say has great value and is said correctly....you do not....OK.

I know you believe what you say has great value. You are entitled to your beliefs, what can I say?
I think what Buddha said has great value; I think what my teacher says has great value. What I say are the ramblings of a deluded person trying to help. Of course, as you said above, I am not like you so...
Ron, a little humbleness never harmed anyone, you know?

Invariably I will be shortly gone again...mainly I came to thank Will for his help and that is now done(on a help thread).
I see some compassionate peoples here...I may stay longer, as only they interest me..sorry that is as I am.
The others I mean them of course no harm but I have nothing much to say to them.

OK, OK, you already spoken about your partiality. We hear you, loud and clear.

I can do nothing for them, and really find them very very boring(actually they make me really truly want to vomit to be plain). It does not matter but is fact. ME or them it matters not who really....it is as it is.

Saying there are people here that make you vomit is the kind of offense that get people suspended, you know? A formal warning will be issued.

Would I be boring then to myself...probably :smile: In solitary I find that not so, anything but, finding all this and me fascinating.... but if I was to converse with myself on a internet board...maybe so. :smile: In person as well I do avert noncompassionate peoples, they bore me and make me sleepy. I don't make myself sleepy alone by myself so that is quite curious. Overtly ego driven peoples..make me want to vomit...in person when I am around them, no matter how witty or intelligent.

You again and the reasons why people make you vomit... really Ron, get a grip. You are bragging about your qualities and criticizing others violently, others whose mistake in this case was asking you to write in a way they understand. Don't cartoonize people you don't even know. Muni payed you a compliment. Me and Greg asked you to write in a clear fashion. Your reaction followed. It doesn't take a genius to understand what's happening here. :lol:

So I am very deficient in many regard....but it is as I am.

Well, you can always try to improve. A good way to do it is pondering the four immesurable thoughts: Loving-kindness, Compassion, Empathetic Joy and Equanimity. People are often advised to start by Equanimity by their teachers. You just shown how correct these teachers are. Thank you, I guess.

No matter at all really...I will be gone this time I suspect very very soon.

Is this an attempt of victimization? Are you saying your excellent person will leave this board because of all the uncompassionate and boring people who make you vomit?
The forest calls to me.I must not dawdle, Time as human it is so short.

Indeed. Imagine what a shame it is wasting it in hatred/attachment.
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby ronnewmexico » Sun May 06, 2012 2:24 am

You missed this or perhaps did not understand....?"ME or them it matters not who really....it is as it is."

This is stating, as I mention with the smile faces....... I am not excluding myself from being exactly as others I describe.... being what it is I am finding and complaining about.. I identify, that peoples being not compassionate makes me sleepy , and then remark....... I find it curious that I don't make myself then sleepy when with myself alone. I didn't state...... I find it also remarkable that I don't make myself feel like vomiting when alone with myself, as I thought that would be beating the idea to death, repeating what was already stated, with the sleepy comment.

You don't get it. I think you are pushing your idea of me into my words.
Hatred attachment...that someone makes me sick or bored sleepy with noncompassionate actions or words in no manner mean I may hate them. WE are all equal in wanting to be happy, they are exactly in this fashion as I am. They do that to me.... it is not their fault or problem it is mine. I am not asking them to change a bit, but it is true nevertheless...hate them....why would I do such a thing.

Attachment...... I do post here rarely last time in January. So if attached to this idea of me I present here, it would be not presenting in such a fashion. I would indeed be here always furthuring such a idea of me, and devoting much time and effort to it. That simply does not fit the presentation.

So yes........ how I think and communicate is different, enough apparently to make communication impossible. I have no problem with that communication in this venue is really not all that important. By your take I'd say also me and muni we are not communicating.
Reading your comment it seems that is your appraisal.

So that is as it is.

My apologies to muni for deviating from point.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun May 06, 2012 3:09 am

You are backtracking, Ron.
Your post was quite explicit and I commented each point you made cautiously so that no misinterpretations were left hanging in the air.
In your post you've shown such a disregard and contempt for others that find disturbing, I'm sorry to say. I wrote you a private message.
My advice would be for you to take a time off, one or two days, clear you head and then come back. We have gone off topic for too long already.
Let's end this discussion here. If you have further comments, please address them to me via PM. Further off topic comments will be removed.
Now:
:focus:
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby muni » Sun May 06, 2012 7:26 am

Patience?

For me that placebo is that we give too much weight to dharma, too much tense or analysis of words, we collect them in preferences. Then they become like the decoration of our samsara which we need to defend. How this can be the meaning of debates?
It is like to embellish our christmas tree with correct bolls and teddy bears instead of seeing the tree its true nature.

We are not without eachother, all others are not different from own mind. We must not get right for ourselves, to win from others. We must see that 'others' are own Mind, this Guru Rinpoche explained in many teachings. Then in equanimity is peace, like that is me told.

In own mind the fog of ignorance must be taken by the wind of insight, only then the sky clears up, in practice.

muni is a simple labeled wind after a brown beany day.

:namaste:
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun May 06, 2012 2:09 pm

You think that is what Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche means when he calls Dharma a placebo?
It's interesting the way you put it, because by affirming the superiority of this or that doctrine, in your line of reasoning, we may in fact be discussing how a placebo is better than the other, when in fact the cure is the same.
But wouldn't that risk rendering all doctrines the same in terms of value? Wouldn't that be denying that there is a "Right View"? Unless you only consider "placebos" doctrines that guide us towards Enlightenment...
How do you deal with this muni?
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby muni » Sun May 06, 2012 2:10 pm

Kindness, warm heart is for me dharma. If me is asked to remain frozen or blind for this, what an example then I give?

My first teachers were animals, I dried my tears on them, they always were kind. I could learn from them. :yinyang:
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sun May 06, 2012 2:17 pm

Yes, kindness is very important. But that alone is not sufficient to reach enlightenment. At most you get a good rebirth.
Animals, as you know, don't practice Dharma. And seldom are kind. If you think about nature, animals spend their time fighting, hunting, fleeing with very little altruistic thoughts. Some scientists say they can't even have them unless for their offspring, although I don't fully agree.
But what I wanted to know is how you reconcile your idea of what DKR means by comparing Dharma to a placebo with the resulting conclusion that seems to discard a Right View. I am not sure if you are understanding DKR correctly.
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 06, 2012 3:27 pm

That's the problem when somebody pulls a catchy snippet out of the context of a teaching, if we had the rest of the teaching we wouldn't be sitting here throwing around ideas of what DKR may or may not have meant by the statement, because I am sure DKR would have explained it in great depth. From what I have seen DKR is not exactly the type to let things hang.
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby rai » Sun May 06, 2012 5:08 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:That's the problem when somebody pulls a catchy snippet out of the context of a teaching, if we had the rest of the teaching we wouldn't be sitting here throwing around ideas of what DKR may or may not have meant by the statement, because I am sure DKR would have explained it in great depth. From what I have seen DKR is not exactly the type to let things hang.
:namaste:


if i am not wrong this is a excerpt from Rinpoche's 10 days teachings on Parting from the 4 Attachments, Nepal 2008. If someone is interested to listen to it as a whole http://www.khyentserecordings.org/namo/ ... du%29.html
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby muni » Sun May 06, 2012 5:12 pm

[quote="Dechen Norbu"]You think that is what Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche means when he calls Dharma a placebo?
quote]

No, we can see it in different ways, I adapt it to what is been said. Since ourselves, others; which we see as real, aren't, we are already nature, so how others it can be called then placebo?

Furthermore I don't think the teachings of Guru Rinpoche are contradicting in any way the teaching of Dzongsar.
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby muni » Sun May 06, 2012 5:15 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:That's the problem when somebody pulls a catchy snippet out of the context of a teaching, if we had the rest of the teaching we wouldn't be sitting here throwing around ideas of what DKR may or may not have meant by the statement, because I am sure DKR would have explained it in great depth. From what I have seen DKR is not exactly the type to let things hang.
:namaste:


All mental fabrications are ideation. We imagine when we add more and more concepts, we will understand. That is the problem.

Buddhism is mostly about practice.
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun May 06, 2012 5:18 pm

rai wrote:if i am not wrong this is a excerpt from Rinpoche's 10 days teachings on Parting from the 4 Attachments, Nepal 2008. If someone is interested to listen to it as a whole http://www.khyentserecordings.org/namo/ ... du%29.html
Excellent! Thank you!
:namaste:
PS Whoops! I just noticed that you have to pay through the ar$e for the teachings!
muni wrote:All mental fabrications are ideation. We imagine when we add more and more concepts, we will understand. That is the problem.
I prefer to have things spelt out to me most times, that way I avoid adding concepts. If I wanted to conceptualise myself into non-conceptualisation then I would be practicing Zen koans and not listening to teachings.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby muni » Sun May 06, 2012 5:28 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:[I prefer to have things spelt out to me most times, that way I avoid adding concepts. If I wanted to conceptualise myself into non-conceptualisation then I would be practicing Zen koans and not listening to teachings.


Okay, I understand. We talk so much about all is mirage, isn't? The teaching throws a light. As nature is already perfect.

How to explain by mind so that it fit for mind what can be recognized by nondualism?
:namaste:
Last edited by muni on Sun May 06, 2012 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby rai » Sun May 06, 2012 5:38 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
rai wrote:if i am not wrong this is a excerpt from Rinpoche's 10 days teachings on Parting from the 4 Attachments, Nepal 2008. If someone is interested to listen to it as a whole http://www.khyentserecordings.org/namo/ ... du%29.html
Excellent! Thank you!
:namaste:
PS Whoops! I just noticed that you have to pay through the ar$e for the teachings!


it's 23 hours of recorded teachings.

here are some free Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche's teachings on Parting from the 4 Attachemnts from Walden, 2009 http://www.khyentserecordings.org/namo/Podcasts.html
Disdaining the lower and unable to grasp the higher,
talking of emptiness, such a person will neglect cause and effect,
mouthing on about the view while in a state of self-deception.
It would be better to concentrate on the gradual path.

"Creation and Completion" Jamgon Kongtrul
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Re: Dharma practice is a placebo.

Postby muni » Sun May 06, 2012 7:09 pm

May I ask to close this tread.

Thank you.
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