Essential nature.

[muni]

THE ESSENTIAL NATURE OF MIND BY DUDJOM RINPOCHE
No words can describe it
No example can point to it
Samsara does not make it worse
Nirvana does not make it better
It has never been born
It has never ceased
It has never been liberated
It has never been deluded
It has never existed
It has never been nonexistent
It has no limits at all
It does not fall into any kind of category.

Buddha said, "This existence of ours is as transient as autumn clouds /
To watch the birth and death of beings is like looking at the movements of a dance. /
A lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the sky, /
Rushing by, like a torrent down a steep mountain."

[catmoon]

Holee crap. This is radical.

Looks like a great POV for contemplation. If he's right, this would explain why I have such difficulty nailing down the nature of mind.

[Luke]

Holee crap. This is radical.

Yes, indeed. I love these kinds of texts. They make me hunger to realize the true nature of mind.

The Third Karmapa also said in his "Aspiration Prayer for Mahamudra" that all objects are mind and that the mind does not exist.

Deep...

[catmoon]

What do you think he meant -

1. The mind has no inherent existence
2. The mind has no existence at all

?

[muni]

What do you think he meant -

1. The mind has no inherent existence
2. The mind has no existence at all

?

Absence of emotional and cognetive obscurations is not nothingness.
Absence of ego-conceptualization is not a state of being unconsiousness.

Absence of duality like: this is so, I am this, so therefore I know that,...to recognize that phantasy opens the view of emptiness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaEjSf8hsxI

[muni]

Yes we should be careful.

longchenpa:

"Extremely proud ones among us, who are possesed by the harmful spirit of their own standpoint, follow mentally fabricated doctrines. Because of their defiled fabrications; they will not see "Dharmata" (Thatness).

Even if they analyze the extremes or the freedom from extremes, they discover the view of only the summit of samsara.

Whatever they do, because of bondage to their standpoint, they will never see the natural primordial wisdom.

The actual meaning is obscured by pondering expressions, and concepts."

Therefore indeed, careful.

[catmoon]

What do you think he meant -

1. The mind has no inherent existence
2. The mind has no existence at all

?

Absence of emotional and cognetive obscurations is not nothingness.
Absence of ego-conceptualization is not a state of being unconsiousness.

Absence of duality like: this is so, I am this, so therefore I know that,...to recognize that phantasy opens the view of emptiness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaEjSf8hsxI

Well, I'd go easy on Muni there. What he is doing is, his level best to express the nonconceptual verbally. He's pointing a finger, not offering the moon. And I think I see where he's pointing.

consider: in the world of concepts, absence of duality is a contradiction in terms.
in the world of experience, it can actually occur.
in the context of emptiness, duality does not exist in any way.

I was clinging to, or a least craving "nature of mind". In the above quote from Dudjom Rinpoche, he simply lists off some concepts that fail to contain the "nature of mind" and leaves it at that.

It's a bizarre topic and I think we have seen farther than we had any right to expect.

[ground]

Well, I'd go easy on Muni there.

That is what I am doing too. Our styles of expression may be different.

What he is doing is, his level best to express the nonconceptual verbally. He's pointing a finger, not offering the moon. And I think I see where he's pointing.

Can anybody offer the moon? Nobody does and certainly nobody has the idea of doing that.

I was clinging to, or a least craving "nature of mind". In the above quote from Dudjom Rinpoche, he simply lists off some concepts that fail to contain the "nature of mind" and leaves it at that.

The nature of mind is emptiness. And that emptiness is no different from the emptiness of an apple. Period.

But whereas we all can perceive the correlate of "apple" through our physical senses we cannot perceive a correlate of "mind" in that way but by convention we infere "mind" from experiences like e.g. thoughts. Actually our physical senses also (not exclusively) cause the experiences from which we infer "mind". You may - by the way - replace "mind" by "consciousness" if conventionally convenient.
But if you look closer we also infere "apple" from experiences that - by the power of convention - we ascribe to our physical senses.
So actually there are only experiences and inferences manifesting through labeling. That exactly has been called "emptiness": Phenomena do not exist from their own side, do not exist inherently. "Phenomena" of course includes "experiences" which also do only exist through the power of convention.
Now considering all this what is the use of specially emphasizing the "nature of the mind"?

Kind regards

[ground]

Yes we should be careful.

longchenpa:

"Extremely proud ones among us, who are possesed by the harmful spirit of their own standpoint, follow mentally fabricated doctrines. Because of their defiled fabrications; they will not see "Dharmata

longchenpa:

Even if they analyze the extremes or the freedom from extremes, they discover the view of only the summit of samsara.
...

This is interesting because exactly the same has been validly said about those who cling to "nature of mind" or "buddha nature". And this exactly has been the reason for some to reason against those views and their methods. Some of those may have had the fault of being "proud" but others of those may have just appeared to be "proud ones".
Actually the rejection of logical reasoning may be caused by a feeling of inferiority which would be no better then pride but also rooted in a deluded perception of "I" and "mine".

Anyway ... what we can infer from this is that conflicts in views mainly arise due to different assessments as to what view is "skillful" but that the intention of the conflicting parties may always be the benefit for beings.

And from this we may further conclude that there is some truth to both of these views which tend to appear contradictory to ordinary mind but are not so contradictory; and that to completely shun logical reasoning on the one hand or to completely shun non-conceptual approaches on the other hand are both erroneous positions.

Kind regards

[muni]

Nothing to add, nothing to reject.

"Purify "outer" perception while in nonclinging awareness; no matter what occurs in mind, the flow of thoughts, memories there is no any focus needful and so they vanish". Padmasambava.

The waterfall need not to be stopped, it can flood freely over the rocks.

Yes, there are different approaches. So very great. We can share with care.

[BFS]

THE ESSENTIAL NATURE OF MIND BY DUDJOM RINPOCHE
No words can describe it
No example can point to it
Samsara does not make it worse
Nirvana does not make it better
It has never been born
It has never ceased
It has never been liberated
It has never been deluded
It has never existed
It has never been nonexistent
It has no limits at all
It does not fall into any kind of category.

Buddha said, "This existence of ours is as transient as autumn clouds /
To watch the birth and death of beings is like looking at the movements of a dance. /
A lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the sky, /
Rushing by, like a torrent down a steep mountain."

Emaho!


Thanks for the explanations that follow the OP too, including the Sogyal Rinpoche link!

My mind turns to a teaching by Holiness The Dalai Lama - in How to See Yourself As you Really Are -

"The realization of emptiness as it is directly experienced in nondualistic meditation cannot be expressed in words; that does not mean that emptiness cannot be reflected and meditation upon. When we say, hear, or think about terms such as emptiness or ultimate truth, they appear to us in separate subject and object - - the consciousness on one side and emptiness on the other side - whereas in profound meditation, subject and object have one taste, emptiness and the consciousness perceiving it are like water put in water, undifferentiable. "

[muni]

Emaho! One taste, thank you.

"You can think of the nature of mind like a mirror, with five different powers or "wisdoms."

Its openness and vastness is the “wisdom of all-encompassing space,” the womb of compassion.

Its capacity to reflect in precise detail whatever comes before it is the "mirrorlike wisdom."

Its fundamental lack of any bias toward any impression is the "equalizing wisdom."

Its ability to distinguish clearly, without confusing in any way the various different phenomena that arise, is the "wisdom of discernment."

And its potential of having everything already accomplished, perfected, and spontaneously present is the "all-accomplishing wisdom".--Sogyal Rinpoche

[ronnewmexico]

muni

Thank you for posting this, it is a very nice and interesting subject to be discussing. The various additional quotes add color and texture to it.

As a aside, to deviate from point a bit....
I have once heard of the use of diety in tantric method as a means to support color and texture to what otherwise appears quite stark in its black and whiteness characteristic(or something to that effect as I have heard it), and suppose that may be true.

So we have seemingly added a bit of color and texture to the issue sans diety. Thanks

[muni]

muni

Thank you for posting this, it is a very nice and interesting subject to be discussing. The various additional quotes add color and texture to it.

As a aside, to deviate from point a bit....
I have once heard of the use of diety in tantric method as a means to support color and texture to what otherwise appears quite stark in its black and whiteness characteristic(or something to that effect as I have heard it), and suppose that may be true.

So we have seemingly added a bit of color and texture to the issue sans diety. Thanks

Thank you to point to the diety approach.
The texts I putted can more confusing then clarifying.
Words.
Still some here understand and maybe share clarity.

[ronnewmexico]

Well as payback here is another(though partial) quote from the Tibetan Book of the Dead(Liberation through Hearing) the Introduction to awareness section, on Appearences.....

All things that appear are manifestations of mind.
The surrounding environment which appears to be inanimate that too is mind.
The sentinent life-forms which appear as the six classes of beings, they too are mind.
The joys of both the gods and humans of the higher existences which appear, they too are mind.
The sorrows of the three lower existences which appear, they too are mind.
The five poisons, representing the dissonant mental states of ignorance, which appear, they too are mind.
The awareness, that is self-originating pristine cognition which appears, it too is mind.

And Naropa....
In these dualistic thoughts lie diseases and "obstructive forces"
When illnesss afflicts one,
The illness lies in the very thought of it,
When harm befalls one,
The harm lies in the very thought of it;
When one dies,
The death lies in the very thought of it;
When one is reborn,
The rebirth lies in the very thought of it;
Pleeasure, pain or others lie in dualistic thoughts,
Yet the mind is empty of any reality.
When one has eliminated the root of dualistic thoughts,
Neither disease nor harm
From "obstructive forces" will befall one.

So back at ya big guy!!

[muni]

Well as payback here is another(though partial) quote from the Tibetan Book of the Dead(Liberation through Hearing) the Introduction to awareness section, on Appearences.....

All things that appear are manifestations of mind.
The surrounding environment which appears to be inanimate that too is mind.
The sentinent life-forms which appear as the six classes of beings, they too are mind.
The joys of both the gods and humans of the higher existences which appear, they too are mind.
The sorrows of the three lower existences which appear, they too are mind.
The five poisons, representing the dissonant mental states of ignorance, which appear, they too are mind.
The awareness, that is self-originating pristine cognition which appears, it too is mind.

And Naropa....
In these dualistic thoughts lie diseases and "obstructive forces"
When illnesss afflicts one,
The illness lies in the very thought of it,
When harm befalls one,
The harm lies in the very thought of it;
When one dies,
The death lies in the very thought of it;
When one is reborn,
The rebirth lies in the very thought of it;
Pleeasure, pain or others lie in dualistic thoughts,
Yet the mind is empty of any reality.
When one has eliminated the root of dualistic thoughts,
Neither disease nor harm
From "obstructive forces" will befall one.

So back at ya big guy!!

Really jewels for contemplation!! Big guy? Who is that?

"Intellectual understanding is like a patch,
It will fall off.
Spiritual experiences are like mist", Dudjom Rinpoche.

"Unless the sun of devotion shines
On the snow peak of the teacher's four kayas,
The stream of his blessings will never flow.
So earnestly arouse devotion in your mind." Zurchungpa.

[muni]

Back.

"Just as the bright red lotus flower
Is untainted by any impurity,
the empty nature of all things
Remains untainted by the defects of karma". Guru rinpoche

[ronnewmexico]

Hmmm...

Back at ya big guy......is Bubba speak from the American south. Bubbas are large people of a generally affable, genial nature who are also described as "good old boys" or occasionally perhaps though rarely "good old girls"(old pick up trucks may more accurately reflect the term "good old girl" however). The idea of two Bubbas describing Tibetan Buddhist thought to my opinion adds a little humor to what may be a dry subject.

Je Gampopa...

Regarding the dividing line between the operative and inoperative law of causality, the karma originating from attachment willl remain operative until the time that one achieves direct insight into true reality and the perfect, illusionlike perception of all appearances. Karma originating from the way (such an advanced meditator) perceives mere appearances will continue to operate until he perfects his attained insight into intrinsic reality and the illusory nature of all appearances. In summary, karma will remain operative up to the moment when the meditator realizes dharmakaya. Once this has been achieved, the law of causality ceases to exist, even as concept.

Back at ya big guy....!

[muni]

Wakeful awareness that is beyond the consciousness
Dharmakaya beyond the fundamental consciousness.

"Freedom from the conditional intellect
I am sorry to say that none of these
Are actually heard by ordinary beings
and the meaning remains untapped.
But I won't say too much about it." Shechen Gyaltsap Gyurme Pema Namgyal.

[ronnewmexico]

....
"To repeat once more, the inner three kayas are dharmakaya, which is the empty essence, sambhogakaya, which is cognizant nature, and nirmanakaya, which is the indivisible unity of emptiness and cognizance. These three kayas are present as the nature of mind of each and every sentient being. Sentient beings roam about in samsara because of not recognizing this nature and therefore are caught up in their emotions of like, dislike and indifference. To recognize mind essence means to be face to face with the three kayas in oneself. The three kayas are not an outcome of meditation practice. Being face to face with them occurs the moment you recognize your mind essence and see that it is no "thing". That is the unconstructed dharmakaya of the awakened state."
Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche....As It Is Vol. 1 Rangjung Yeshe Publications