Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby WeiHan » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:13 pm

miranda wrote:No , 3 white and 3 sweet are ok for any kind of offerings. For Sur, there is usually fat from animals, that is not appropriate for the Riwo Sang Chö. For exemple the ready made sticks for Sur that is avaible from Shechen Gompa are not to be used for Sang. This is why they distribute also special sticks for Riwo sang cho. Be careful with all these things, and take correct instructions from a competent Lama .


But three "whites" already contain animal fat. The tibetan yogurt which is an ingredient in both Sur and Riwo Sangcho conatin animal fat. If animal fat isn't allowed in Riwo Sangcho, then why does the text list three whites as ingredient?

The difference of Shechen Gompa Sur and Riwo Sangcho incense stick is that the sur one contains 3 whites and 3 sweets while the Riwo sangcho one don't contain 3 white and 3 sweets. I even feel that their Surpo incense sticks are more suitable for Riwo Sangcho practice.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby miranda » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:15 pm

Of course yes there is animal fat in the 3 white, but the fat used in sur is another one, which is not from milked products, and not ok for the riwo sang chö.

There is another point which is not clear for me: The musk is present in regular high grade tibetan incense. And some riwo sang chÖ texts ( at least the Dudjom version of Lhatsun Namkha Jigme's) include nagas among the guests. Meanwhile I never was told not to use those incense sticks in the sang....
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby heart » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:26 pm

miranda wrote:Of course yes there is animal fat in the 3 white, but the fat used in sur is another one, which is not from milked products, and not ok for the riwo sang chö.

There is another point which is not clear for me: The musk is present in regular high grade tibetan incense. And some riwo sang chÖ texts ( at least the Dudjom version of Lhatsun Namkha Jigme's) include nagas among the guests. Meanwhile I never was told not to use those incense sticks in the sang....


Yes, I wonder about this also. The riwo sangchö sticks I use smells great and contains musk.

/magnus
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:42 pm

heart wrote:
miranda wrote:Of course yes there is animal fat in the 3 white, but the fat used in sur is another one, which is not from milked products, and not ok for the riwo sang chö.

There is another point which is not clear for me: The musk is present in regular high grade tibetan incense. And some riwo sang chÖ texts ( at least the Dudjom version of Lhatsun Namkha Jigme's) include nagas among the guests. Meanwhile I never was told not to use those incense sticks in the sang....


Yes, I wonder about this also. The riwo sangchö sticks I use smells great and contains musk.

/magnus



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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Kunzang » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:10 am

miranda wrote: And some riwo sang chÖ texts ( at least the Dudjom version of Lhatsun Namkha Jigme's) include nagas among the guests.


What line mentions nagas (klu)?
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby miranda » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:08 am

In the end of the dogpa part, before dedication, there is a line : Za' Lu Gyäl Po Sog Ug Dü Pa DOg. Yet they are not clearly mentioned as the guests. May be my mistake?
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Adamantine » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:43 pm

yeah I don't think one needs to be concerned about naga's preferences in Riwo Sang Cho, but since there may be many vegetarian guests it is best not to use animal products that are derived from killing. Dairy is OK of course, 3 sweets and 3 whites are considered important offerings in Riwo Sang Cho also.

In regards to Sur, --there are two types of Sur: Red and White. The Red sur uses meat. The White sur is vegetarian, = 3 sweets and 3 whites. I don't know if Sechen is making Sur incense for the Red Sur but I think that would be odd. ..Red sur is for more volatile spirits and so it requires more caution, more specialized or competent practitioners. Generally, most Sur incense would just include small amounts of the 3 sweets and 3 whites, at least I imagine so or it would say otherwise... you wouldn't offer vegetarian Sur to meat eating spirits and you wouldn't offer meat to vegetarian spirits, etc.

Regarding musk-- I have seen it is in many incense blends.. but since I think it is awful how it is harvested I would prefer to avoid it. Anyway, it is easy to put together one's own sang powder mixes.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby WeiHan » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:00 pm

miranda wrote:Of course yes there is animal fat in the 3 white, but the fat used in sur is another one, which is not from milked products, and not ok for the riwo sang chö.

There is another point which is not clear for me: The musk is present in regular high grade tibetan incense. And some riwo sang chÖ texts ( at least the Dudjom version of Lhatsun Namkha Jigme's) include nagas among the guests. Meanwhile I never was told not to use those incense sticks in the sang....


What other animal fat does they use? I have seen Zopa Rinpoche's list for Sur but it don't contain any animal fat. I have seen the list of ingredients in some brands of sur offering cones and powder and they don't contain animal fat as well except for the 3 whites and 3 sweets ( other ingredients are powdered grains, scented wood powder etc...)

I get the impression that the difference in Sur and Riwo Sangcho ingredients are their percentage of 3 whites and 3 sweets. For Sur, it contains a high percentage of 3 whites and 3 sweets and in some case, almost entire ingredient to be burnt are flour so as to create the foood aroma. As for Riwo sangcho, there are more ingredients of scented wood to create the smoke.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby WeiHan » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
miranda wrote:Of course yes there is animal fat in the 3 white, but the fat used in sur is another one, which is not from milked products, and not ok for the riwo sang chö.

There is another point which is not clear for me: The musk is present in regular high grade tibetan incense. And some riwo sang chÖ texts ( at least the Dudjom version of Lhatsun Namkha Jigme's) include nagas among the guests. Meanwhile I never was told not to use those incense sticks in the sang....


Yes, I wonder about this also. The riwo sangchö sticks I use smells great and contains musk.

/magnus



If you have doubts, just use juniper...


Sur and Riwo sangcho are extremely popular among chinese especially in Taiwan and China nowaday.

I read that Dudjom Rinpoche taught that Riwo Sangcho has all merits of Jinsek, Sang and Sur ( three in one). That is why it is good to include some food that is also included in a Sur.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby miranda » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:12 pm

As for the sur question. I brought some sur encense (not specified white or red...but probably the white one) from Shechen, and as I saw they have the 3 white and 3 sweet, I was planning to use in my sang, but after asking Lama Tenzin Samphel, from Dudjom ligneage, He forbid me to do so, telling me there is inside some fat extrates from the dead body of animal. So that is all I can say on that topic. He told me I shouls use only for sur offering, and also I can use a little , with other regular ans specific for the gardiens serkyem offering.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby WeiHan » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:04 pm

miranda wrote:As for the sur question. I brought some sur encense (not specified white or red...but probably the white one) from Shechen, and as I saw they have the 3 white and 3 sweet, I was planning to use in my sang, but after asking Lama Tenzin Samphel, from Dudjom ligneage, He forbid me to do so, telling me there is inside some fat extrates from the dead body of animal. So that is all I can say on that topic. He told me I shouls use only for sur offering, and also I can use a little , with other regular ans specific for the gardiens serkyem offering.


I don't understand why they want to add some fat extracts from animals (if it is true). It is not an ingredient for white sur. Unless they are making for red sur which don't make sense too since red sur isn't commonly practiced.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby ngodrup » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:40 pm

The thing to appreciate about Ri Wo Sang Chod is that it is from
Dzogchen POV, so every kind of offering is made to very kind
of being without conceptualizing -- this is good to offer, that isn't;
they like this or that.

The main question is what offends nagas.
One doesn't have to specifically include them.
You can if you want, in which case you modify.

Otherwise, whatever you burn, you visualize as whatever
beings want. Shenpa Dawa Rinpoche spoke of offering
the sang twice, morning and evening, and that you could
specifically include some meat and alcohol in the evening
sang and think of including protectors. He didn't say it
was required, but that you could.

There are other sangs one could do, if you have qualms
about doing this in the Dzogchen way.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Bj Lhundrup » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:17 am

So I was hope to get some thoughts for a paper. I need five reasons why "not" to use Padma-28. Like five negatives about the Padma-28. Any thoughts?

Thanks
Ps. this is here because I could not put it in the "Tibetan Medicine" forum, sorry.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:04 am

miranda wrote:When I asked him if it is ok to use guggul in sang, he said "a little is ok". I came to understand he means very little among several kilos of other regular stuff.
Who is "him"? I mean, okay, if their instruction was specific to your question and situation then go for it, but generally, the use of guggul in Riwo Sangcho is avoided.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby pemachophel » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:42 pm

BTW, Lama Acharya Dawa Choddak will be transmitting and teaching about Riwo Sangchod in Boulder, Colorado in early November. Please see the Events section for a detailed announcement, specific date, time, and location.
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Kunga » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:13 am

The point is that the fat in dairy products doesn't cause the death of the animal, so it is vegetarian-friendly. This why human vegetarians can eat dairy products, but not - for example - cakes with fat such as suet in them, because this kind of fat is stripped from the organs of a dead animal. (Though there is a vegetarian suet these days.)

We always use milk, and lots of it, in naga pujas. :namaste:
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby plwk » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:06 am

During sur, She made sure there were no visible flames but that there was a steady column of smoke.
I was reading this...
The fire shouldn’t have much smoke. If you make fire with firewood, then usually there’s smoke.
If there’s a lot of smoke, then you don’t smell the food because the smoke overwhelms the scent of the food.
The food scent gets mixed in the smoke, the smoke’s stronger, and so they might not receive the food.
So, reduce the smoke as much as possible.
Let it burn as much as possible until there’s either no smoke at all or very little smoke.
The less smoke the better so that the spirits can smell the food.

When they smell the food and when you chant the mantra they get something.
When the coals are red inside with some white flecks outside, that’s good.
So then put food on top of the burning coals.


So, which one is correct? :shrug:
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:17 am

plwk wrote:
During sur, She made sure there were no visible flames but that there was a steady column of smoke.
I was reading this...
The fire shouldn’t have much smoke. If you make fire with firewood, then usually there’s smoke.
If there’s a lot of smoke, then you don’t smell the food because the smoke overwhelms the scent of the food.
The food scent gets mixed in the smoke, the smoke’s stronger, and so they might not receive the food.
So, reduce the smoke as much as possible.
Let it burn as much as possible until there’s either no smoke at all or very little smoke.
The less smoke the better so that the spirits can smell the food.

When they smell the food and when you chant the mantra they get something.
When the coals are red inside with some white flecks outside, that’s good.
So then put food on top of the burning coals.


So, which one is correct? :shrug:
They are not contradictory. The smoke should be from the offerings, and not from the wood.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Riwo Sangchod - ingredients question

Postby ngodrup » Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:48 pm

I heard Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche state that one might do Riwo Sang Chod twice
a day. Or at least in a different way depending on the time-- morning or evening.
Specifically, the more white things in the morning and the protector type things in
the evening. So he specifically mentioned burning some meat and alcohol on
the night offering. The wording was interesting-- he said "putting a a little alcohol
on the fire will be interesting." I've also heard that very great Lamas who have
been gifted thankas and other valuables will ofter those to the fire also.
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