Have you heard about Jatson Rinpoche ?

[Adamantine]

No, he was a layperson, working in a bank in Switzerland, that did a retreat in Parping and came out of it sure of being a Chokling tulku I have been told. If you look at the history on the Rigpa wiki you will find these removed comments:

"lived for 23 years at Asura Cave. I was living there for the entire time that this man was doing his retreat there. Some of the statements which have been made in the article are absolutely false."

"Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche never came to visit this man at Asura Cave. Nor did he recognize him as an incarnate. This man is a charlatan and a fraud. Most of the things stated in the article are fabrications."

/magnus

Well that's a shame Magnus. I couldn't find the comments in the history but there's many missing ones now it seems. I also noticed that he gave an evening talk during HH the Dalai Lama's visit, after Sogyal Rinpoche.. If he is a fraud why is there not more information about this online, and why is Namkha RInpoche having him give empowerments to his own students? Very odd.

[heart]

No, he was a layperson, working in a bank in Switzerland, that did a retreat in Parping and came out of it sure of being a Chokling tulku I have been told. If you look at the history on the Rigpa wiki you will find these removed comments:

"lived for 23 years at Asura Cave. I was living there for the entire time that this man was doing his retreat there. Some of the statements which have been made in the article are absolutely false."

"Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche never came to visit this man at Asura Cave. Nor did he recognize him as an incarnate. This man is a charlatan and a fraud. Most of the things stated in the article are fabrications."

/magnus

Well that's a shame Magnus. I couldn't find the comments in the history but there's many missing ones now it seems. I also noticed that he gave an evening talk during HH the Dalai Lama's visit, after Sogyal Rinpoche.. If he is a fraud why is there not more information about this online, and why is Namkha RInpoche having him give empowerments to his own students? Very odd.

The comments are there but you have to push a button or two.I have no idea why the lineage holders don't speak up. Only the students that actually asked about this guy from them found out about this. I think it is a Tibetan cultural thing actually but what it is about I just don't know.

/magnus

[narraboth]

But was he not really recognized by HH Karmapa, HH DKR, Tsetrul Rinpoche, etc. like the rigpa wiki says?.

No, he was a layperson, working in a bank in Switzerland, that did a retreat in Parping and came out of it sure of being a Chokling tulku I have been told. If you look at the history on the Rigpa wiki you will find these removed comments:

"lived for 23 years at Asura Cave. I was living there for the entire time that this man was doing his retreat there. Some of the statements which have been made in the article are absolutely false."

"Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche never came to visit this man at Asura Cave. Nor did he recognize him as an incarnate. This man is a charlatan and a fraud. Most of the things stated in the article are fabrications."

/magnus

Why the comment was removed? I mean, ripawiki is not really like wiki, can everyone just go and change contents? There must be an admin I guess?

Indeed we couldn't see who's his previous seat holder. I think traditionally chokling tulkus are all very well known.

Anyway, I have heard that this chokling tulku is going to give lame tukdrub barchey kunsel and yishin norbu in swiss this summer. I was interested but then I started worrying due to some reason (before magnus told me this ). I tried to make my friend to ask dzongsar khyentse rinpoche (who's in Taiwan now) how this lama is, but you know DK rinpoche is very busy.

Anyway, who told you this, magnus? Erik told you? or someone else?

About Namkha Rinpoche himself... I think as a teacher, if you invite someone come to your center to give vajrayana or even dzogchen teachings, you have responsibility to your students, because students will almost blindly accept this lama due to you.
I have never met Namkha Rinpoche, but he got quite some taiwanese students (mainly through Rigpa community), some of them told me that they find him very helpful, but I also heard something 'amazed' me.

[heart]

Narraboth, it is just a normal wiki. Anyone can edit it, you just have to get an account, I tried once because I also wondered. Someone, the person who put it there, is guarding it closely. Anyway, my information comes directly from the main lineage holders.

/magnus

[narraboth]

I found some information about this CJP rinpoche in Chinese.
I think he is quite active in Tibet/Kham, and I think he has quite good relationship with several really good masters in Tibet.

He admits that he was not formally rcognised by Khyentse Rinpoche nor 16th Karmapa. I will try to confirm if he really got recognition from the 2nd Azong drukpa Rinpoche as he claims. (I couldn't see recognition letter in the website though)

Still, even he was formally recognised, if he made a false claim about his retreat or studying, I would worry. But nowaday it's really hard to seperate what is fact and what is not.

[Adamantine]

Still, even he was formally recognised, if he made a false claim about his retreat or studying, I would worry. But nowaday it's really hard to seperate what is fact and what is not.

If all the Chokling lineage holders agree that he is fake then it seems pretty clear. . . !

[heart]

Still, even he was formally recognised, if he made a false claim about his retreat or studying, I would worry. But nowaday it's really hard to seperate what is fact and what is not.

If all the Chokling lineage holders agree that he is fake then it seems pretty clear. . . !

I am not even sure who all Chokling lineage holders are, but the ones I know well are in agreement about this.

/magnus

[heart]

I found some information about this CJP rinpoche in Chinese.
I think he is quite active in Tibet/Kham, and I think he has quite good relationship with several really good masters in Tibet.

He admits that he was not formally rcognised by Khyentse Rinpoche nor 16th Karmapa. I will try to confirm if he really got recognition from the 2nd Azong drukpa Rinpoche as he claims. (I couldn't see recognition letter in the website though)

Still, even he was formally recognised, if he made a false claim about his retreat or studying, I would worry. But nowaday it's really hard to seperate what is fact and what is not.

This makes it more and more difficult to find a qualified teacher. Anyway, even if we forget about the Tulku title according to my teachers this person isn't even a qualified to give wang, lung and tri. It is all so crazy.

/magnus

[narraboth]

Still, even he was formally recognised, if he made a false claim about his retreat or studying, I would worry. But nowaday it's really hard to seperate what is fact and what is not.

If all the Chokling lineage holders agree that he is fake then it seems pretty clear. . . !

I hope things can be pretty clear, but there are some problems here:

1. This CJP rinpoche claims that his recognistion from Azongdrukpa rinpoche has been approved by 17th Karmapa when Karmapa was in Tibet. (of course this need to be checked ) Karmapa used to have a final say on Chokling tulku issue.

2. If we say Azong drukpa Rinpoche really recognised him, I dare not to say that he is a fake, no matter Azong drukpa Rinpoche is a chokling lineage master or not. But I have to emphasize, that's the case if Azong drukpa Rinpoche really willingly recognised him. I didn't see the recognition letter yet.

3. Well, it's a bit problematic nowadays really. Some great masters are in Tibet, some are in India. I have heard quite some stories about things turned confusing.
One of them: Kathok monastery, a main sub-school of Nyingma tradition, made a public claim 2 years ago that some 'tulku' should be ticked out. One of them is called 'Drukdrag Rinpoche'; base on Kathok monastery's claim, this person is a close family member of a great master Khenchen Pema tsewang, the guy went to India with the great master, met HH Mingling Trichin. Then the great master passed, he went to Kathok saying that Mingling Trichin recognised him as a tulku, so Kathok also treated him as a tulku. Finally Kathok found that Mingdroling part didn't actually recognise him as a tulku, so now the monastery claims that he is a fake. That's just the story from Kathok, this Drukdrag Rinpoche got his own version too.


The good thing is, things can also be not that complicate. No matter he was properly recognised or not, it's you to decide if you are going to take him as your guru. If you know something about him is not that proper, even he was really recognised, you can still keep distance. I agree with Magnus, tulku real or not is important, but before you accept a lama, you need to check more than that.

[Adamantine]

This all reminds me of the "Tenpa" character...
It seems there are plenty of Tibetan con-men out there too..
I suppose it makes sense: inherent in the Tulku system
is potential for the posession of a lot of money and power-- but for somebody
to manipulate and deceive about such things would mean
they are the worst type of cynical and self-obsessed nihilist, precisely
the opposite of what they're posing as. Degenerate age indeed, although
from glancing at history this has been a problem since the beginning...

[Dhondrub]

Just to make matters more complicated: as far as i know there is also another legit Tsikey Chokling Rinpoche in Tibet who recieved the Chokling Tersar from "our" Tsikey Chokling Rinpoche (Tulku Urgyens son).

[narraboth]

Just to make matters more complicated: as far as i know there is also another legit Tsikey Chokling Rinpoche in Tibet who recieved the Chokling Tersar from "our" Tsikey Chokling Rinpoche (Tulku Urgyens son).

As far as I know, the one in Tibet is widely accepted as a true one too. He passed in 2010 unfortunately.
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... ation_Line
However, I have heard this Tsikey Chokling was at least friendly to that chokling Jigme Palden... I can't be 100% sure though.
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_4adac8050100oao7.html
this is that CJP rinpoche's bio in chinese, you guys probably would like to check those photos and long life prayers written in tibetan.

There is another Dzogchen Chokling, recognised by famous Dzogchen monastery leader Pema Kalzang Rinpoche.

[heart]

Just to make matters more complicated: as far as i know there is also another legit Tsikey Chokling Rinpoche in Tibet who recieved the Chokling Tersar from "our" Tsikey Chokling Rinpoche (Tulku Urgyens son).

That is correct, no problems there what I know about.

/magnus

[Sönam]

Regarding Jason Rinpoché the story is over ... in the reorganization of Kagyu Ling, Kalou Rinpoche has also reorganized the teachings ...

"Des programmes 2011/2012 diffusés précédemment, aussi bien pour Kagyu Ling, Soukka Tcheu Ling, et les centres affiliés (KDTL), seul est maintenue la venue du Très Vénérable Tenga Rinpotché du 9 au 14 Juin qui est véritablement une personnalité méritant ce titre ; nous souhaitons tous qu’il soit parmi nous aussi souvent et aussi longtemps que possible."

"From the previous program 2011/2012, for Kagyu LIng, Soukka Tcheu Ling, and other affiliated centers (KDTL), only the visit of The Very Venerable Tenga Rinpoché is maintained from 9 to 14 June who is a true personnality that deserve that title. We all hope that he will be with us as often and as long as possible."

Thank you for the cleaning Rinpoché!
Sönam

[narraboth]

Regarding Jason Rinpoché the story is over ... in the reorganization of Kagyu Ling, Kalou Rinpoche has also reorganized the teachings ...

"Des programmes 2011/2012 diffusés précédemment, aussi bien pour Kagyu Ling, Soukka Tcheu Ling, et les centres affiliés (KDTL), seul est maintenue la venue du Très Vénérable Tenga Rinpotché du 9 au 14 Juin qui est véritablement une personnalité méritant ce titre ; nous souhaitons tous qu’il soit parmi nous aussi souvent et aussi longtemps que possible."

"From the previous program 2011/2012, for Kagyu LIng, Soukka Tcheu Ling, and other affiliated centers (KDTL), only the visit of The Very Venerable Tenga Rinpoché is maintained from 9 to 14 June who is a true personnality that deserve that title. We all hope that he will be with us as often and as long as possible."

Thank you for the cleaning Rinpoché!
Sönam

sorry, I don't understand. He mentioned tenga rinpoche, what's that to do with jatson rinpoche?

[Dhondrub]

Regarding Jason Rinpoché the story is over ... in the reorganization of Kagyu Ling, Kalou Rinpoche has also reorganized the teachings ...

"Des programmes 2011/2012 diffusés précédemment, aussi bien pour Kagyu Ling, Soukka Tcheu Ling, et les centres affiliés (KDTL), seul est maintenue la venue du Très Vénérable Tenga Rinpotché du 9 au 14 Juin qui est véritablement une personnalité méritant ce titre ; nous souhaitons tous qu’il soit parmi nous aussi souvent et aussi longtemps que possible."

"From the previous program 2011/2012, for Kagyu LIng, Soukka Tcheu Ling, and other affiliated centers (KDTL), only the visit of The Very Venerable Tenga Rinpoché is maintained from 9 to 14 June who is a true personnality that deserve that title. We all hope that he will be with us as often and as long as possible."

Thank you for the cleaning Rinpoché!
Sönam

sorry, I don't understand. He mentioned tenga rinpoche, what's that to do with jatson rinpoche?

it means that the other "rinpoches"(like jatson rinpoche) who were invited dont have the qualities in the Kyabje Kalu Rinpoches eyes.

[Sönam]

Regarding Jason Rinpoché the story is over ... in the reorganization of Kagyu Ling, Kalou Rinpoche has also reorganized the teachings ...

"Des programmes 2011/2012 diffusés précédemment, aussi bien pour Kagyu Ling, Soukka Tcheu Ling, et les centres affiliés (KDTL), seul est maintenue la venue du Très Vénérable Tenga Rinpotché du 9 au 14 Juin qui est véritablement une personnalité méritant ce titre ; nous souhaitons tous qu’il soit parmi nous aussi souvent et aussi longtemps que possible."

"From the previous program 2011/2012, for Kagyu LIng, Soukka Tcheu Ling, and other affiliated centers (KDTL), only the visit of The Very Venerable Tenga Rinpoché is maintained from 9 to 14 June who is a true personnality that deserve that title. We all hope that he will be with us as often and as long as possible."

Thank you for the cleaning Rinpoché!
Sönam

sorry, I don't understand. He mentioned tenga rinpoche, what's that to do with jatson rinpoche?

In Dashang Kagyu Ling's summer programmer they were two teachers invited, Tenga Rinpoche et Jason Rinpoche ... only Tenga Rinpoché is maintained.

Sönam