How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby Luke » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:05 pm

I am interested in understanding the true relationship between Guru Rinpoche and Shakyamuni Buddha.

I have heard it said that Guru Rinpoche was an emanation of Shakyamuni. Is this the standard Nyingma viewpoint? So if Guru Rinpoche is an emanation of Shakyamuni, then that doesn't mean that they are the same being with the same mindstream, does it?

Are they one mindstream which has existed for eternity? Or are they two distinct mindstreams?

The absolute nature of both is the same, right?

My understanding of the "emanation" concept is not yet precise.
User avatar
Luke
 
Posts: 1669
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:04 pm

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby tamdrin » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:38 pm

Padmasambhava is supposed to have been one of the four sons of the poultry keeping women in Nepal who made a prayer at the construction of the wish granting Stupa of Boudha to become a powerful tantric master (the other two all were brothers prayed to become respectivel King Trisong Deutson and Abbot Shantarakshita I believe the fourth become some kind of obstructor or something).
tamdrin
 
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:01 pm

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby Tilopa » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:37 pm

I have heard it said that Guru Rinpoche was an emanation of Shakyamuni. Is this the standard Nyingma viewpoint?


I'm not sure. It's common for Tibetans to make these sort of claims but whether or not it's literally true is uncertain and in any case irrelevant as they are both manifestations of Dharmakaya and as such have exactly the same enlightened qualities. Although they engage in different activities - SB as a 'Wheel Turning Buddha' and GR as a 'Tantric Mahasiddha' - they both strive to propagate Dharma and benefit living beings. If it's helpful you can see one as an emanation of the other, there's certainly no fault in that. And maybe it's true, I don't know.

So if Guru Rinpoche is an emanation of Shakyamuni, then that doesn't mean that they are the same being with the same mindstream, does it?


If GR is an emanation of SB then they would be two manifestations of the same mindstream, yes.

Are they one mindstream which has existed for eternity? Or are they two distinct mindstreams?


According to Sutra when beings achieve enlightenment although they have the same qualities they nevertheless have distinct and separate mindstreams. So there are countless Buddhas. However according to Tantra one's mind merges with the mind of the Guru Buddha Deity and in doing so dissolves into and becomes inseparable with the Dharmakaya. This seems closer to the idea of one all pervasive cosmic Buddha consciousness. It can be one of those endless debates but where there are differences the view of Tantra is usually considered to be superior to that of Sutra.

The absolute nature of both is the same, right?


Yes.

My understanding of the "emanation" concept is not yet precise.


Nor mine but I'm working on it. Once a bodhisattva has realized emptiness and reached the Path of Seeing he/she can have many bodies simultaneously - same mind many bodies. This ability increases as they progress towards enlightenment and when Buddhahood is achieved they can manifest infinite forms throughout space and time - whatever is helpful for others, depending on their karma. These manifestations are what we also call emanations.
Last edited by Tilopa on Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Tilopa
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:53 am

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby Tilopa » Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:39 pm

tamdrin wrote:Padmasambhava is supposed to have been one of the four sons of the poultry keeping women in Nepal who made a prayer at the construction of the wish granting Stupa of Boudha to become a powerful tantric master (the other two all were brothers prayed to become respectivel King Trisong Deutson and Abbot Shantarakshita I believe the fourth become some kind of obstructor or something).


Yes well...mmmm. Tibetans love these sort of stories and as I said above maybe it's true. But then again maybe not.
User avatar
Tilopa
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:53 am

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby tamdrin » Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:43 am

It's a more likely story of how Guru Rinpoche came to be than the other ones are. If it is the case then no.. GR and SB wouldn't be the same mind stream... Buddha's past lives go back in striving as a bodhissatva as displayed in the jataka tales....
tamdrin
 
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:01 pm

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby nirmal » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:48 pm

Luke wrote:I am interested in understanding the true relationship between Guru Rinpoche and Shakyamuni Buddha.

I have heard it said that Guru Rinpoche was an emanation of Shakyamuni. Is this the standard Nyingma viewpoint? So if Guru Rinpoche is an emanation of Shakyamuni, then that doesn't mean that they are the same being with the same mindstream, does it?

Are they one mindstream which has existed for eternity? Or are they two distinct mindstreams?

The absolute nature of both is the same, right?

My understanding of the "emanation" concept is not yet precise.


According to the teachings orally imparted by Guru Rona Rimpoche, Guru Padmasambhava was an incarnation of three holy personalities; Gautama Buddha was his body, Amitabha Buddha was his speech and Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara was his mind.The same material is described in different ways in the edition of Evans Wentz's 'The Tibtan Book of the Great Liberation.' Although it says that Guru Padmasambhava was an incarnation of Amitabha only, it also mentions the reason why Gautama was incarnated in his holy body and why Avalokitesvara joined the trinity of incarnations. Now, this is Buddhism.
User avatar
nirmal
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:22 pm

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby Josef » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:02 pm

I think Guru Rinpoche was a normal person like you and me who practiced diligently and became a buddha.
No need for emanation stories or manifestations. Padmasambhava attained realization through practice just like we can.
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby nirmal » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:16 pm

Nangwa wrote:I think Guru Rinpoche was a normal person like you and me who practiced diligently and became a buddha.
No need for emanation stories or manifestations. Padmasambhava attained realization through practice just like we can.


Ok, I'll leave you with your thoughts but I just wish to add that 'The Tibetan Book of Great Liberation ' is based on reliable histories and not on myths.
User avatar
nirmal
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:22 pm

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby Pero » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:37 pm

Nangwa wrote:I think Guru Rinpoche was a normal person like you and me who practiced diligently and became a buddha.
No need for emanation stories or manifestations. Padmasambhava attained realization through practice just like we can.


Yes I prefer this also.

Jetsun Taranatha says Padmasambhava was the son of a member of the royal family in Oddiyana named Srigdhara.

tamdrin wrote:Padmasambhava is supposed to have been one of the four sons of the poultry keeping women in Nepal who made a prayer at the construction of the wish granting Stupa of Boudha to become a powerful tantric master (the other two all were brothers prayed to become respectivel King Trisong Deutson and Abbot Shantarakshita I believe the fourth become some kind of obstructor or something).


I think this is a story about their prevous lives. I heard that these three were constructing the stupa and Trisong Deutsen killed a mosquito who then became his daughter when he was king. And she in turn was reborn as Pema Ledrel Tsal etc.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
Pero
 
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby tamdrin » Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:50 am

Yeah so clearly they have separate mindstreams.. The past lives of Padmasambhava having not been the same as those of Shakyamuni...



:smile:
tamdrin
 
Posts: 291
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:01 pm

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby pink » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:10 pm

i m practicing nyingma tradition for last 15 years and i never heard or seen in text saying that Guru Padmasambhava as an emanation of buddha Shakyamuni. you must be mistaken. it is said Guru padmasambhava was an emanation of Buddha Amitabha's aspiration. it was writen by himself in seven branch practice (not seven line prayers)
pink
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:00 pm

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby Blue Garuda » Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:22 pm

I think that major lineage masters such as Padmasabhava and Je Tsongkhapa may be seen as the embodiment of Shakyamuni, Vajradhara, Avalokiteshvara, Manjushri and Vajrapani. In turn, we may regard all Buddhas as of the 'same nature' as Shakyamuni.
Left
Blue Garuda
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby Luke » Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:14 pm

Here's an old thread in which I talk about a quote which seems to imply that Guru Rinpoche and Buddha Shakyamuni were both emanations of the Nirmanakaya Buddha.

http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... 0Kayas.htm
That webpage said the following: "NIRMANAKAYA: All Buddhas are emanations of one Buddha...The Supreme emanation takes birth in the world as a unique person. Buddha Shakyamuni and Guru Padmasambhava are examples of this kind. They have special forms of body, speech and mind."
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=310&p=2209

Although it sounds strange to me that they say "the Nirmanakya Buddha" as if it's some universal, god-like essence, which is not a Buddhist idea, instead of using the term to refer to the distinct physical bodies of Shakyamuni and Guru Rinpoche.
User avatar
Luke
 
Posts: 1669
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:04 pm

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby Tilopa » Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:01 am

Luke wrote:Here's an old thread in which I talk about a quote which seems to imply that Guru Rinpoche and Buddha Shakyamuni were both emanations of the Nirmanakaya Buddha.


The dharmakaya is the all pervasive omniscient mind of Buddha, the sambogakaya is the subtle body (in the form of a deity) which can only be seen by Arya Bodhisattvas and more highly realized beings while the nirmanakaya is the gross body emanated into the world of form for our benefit so it's more accurate to say that BS and GR were both nirmanakaya emanations, not emanations of the nirmanakaya.

Although it sounds strange to me that they say "the Nirmanakya Buddha" as if it's some universal, god-like essence, which is not a Buddhist idea, instead of using the term to refer to the distinct physical bodies of Shakyamuni and Guru Rinpoche.


True but the dharmakaya is very much a universal cosmic consciousness, all knowing, all seeing and all pervasive. It's surprisingly similar to god/allah/yahweh but not a creator and while omniscient is not omnipotent. Because of this I think the different religions of the world have much more in common than most people realize.
User avatar
Tilopa
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:53 am

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby kirtu » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:34 pm

tamdrin wrote:It's a more likely story of how Guru Rinpoche came to be than the other ones are. If it is the case then no.. GR and SB wouldn't be the same mind stream... Buddha's past lives go back in striving as a bodhissatva as displayed in the jataka tales....


No even so GR and SB could in need be the same mind stream. Mind streams of enlightened beings aren't linear or constrained and both GR and SB arise in different forms over time (and certainly in stories) to benefit beings. However I've never heard a Nyingma teacher say that.

Kirt Undercoffer
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4368
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby kirtu » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:37 pm

Tilopa wrote:True but the dharmakaya is very much a universal cosmic consciousness,


That's going too far as it can invoke the view that all consciousness is either the same or part of the same thing or source.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4368
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby kirtu » Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:46 pm

Luke wrote:I have heard it said that Guru Rinpoche was an emanation of Shakyamuni. Is this the standard Nyingma viewpoint?


It is an apparently common Nyingma viewpoint. I'm not sure how canonical it is.

It should be remembered that in a sutra (maybe the Avatamsaka) I think Shariputra criticized Manjushri for beating a drum or something and Shakyamuni revealed to Shariputra in a vision that in fact Manjushri followed SB in all world systems and beat a drum in a particular circumstance.

So even on a sutric level this idea is not foreign (although the sutra didn't state that Manjushri was an emanation of SB - it's just the activity that was performed in all world systems by Manjushri following and attending SB).

Then there is the amazing image in the Brahma Net Sutra of the convocation of innumerable Shakyamuni Buddhas and at the end all of them go to their respective world systems. So we can infer that innumerable enlightened beings performing activities follow SB's around in their respective systems. And Padmasambhava is said to bring the full tantric teachings.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
 
Posts: 4368
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby Ashocka » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:24 pm

From what I have understood, Padmasambhava emanated from Amitabha. Amitabha has vast connections with beings of this eon, so much so His sutra was the only one Buddha Shakyamuni taught without it being requested because of the merit of Amitabha's aspirations. It is said that Padmasambhava will come as the regent of each of the 1000 Buddhas of this eon. Buddha Shakyamuni predicted he would come 12 years after his passing. So to me Padmasambhava is Amitabha's nirmanakaya and Shakyamuni Buddha's regent.

(I don't have any real scholastic knowledge.... just trying to assemble some understanding from teachings I have heard)
Ashocka
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:10 am

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby Josef » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:16 am

nirmal wrote:
Nangwa wrote:I think Guru Rinpoche was a normal person like you and me who practiced diligently and became a buddha.
No need for emanation stories or manifestations. Padmasambhava attained realization through practice just like we can.


Ok, I'll leave you with your thoughts but I just wish to add that 'The Tibetan Book of Great Liberation ' is based on reliable histories and not on myths.

You're joking right?
Josef
 
Posts: 1565
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: How are Padmasambhava and Shakyamuni interrelated?

Postby ground » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:35 am

nirmal wrote:According to the teachings orally imparted by Guru Rona Rimpoche, Guru Padmasambhava was an incarnation of three holy personalities; Gautama Buddha was his body, Amitabha Buddha was his speech and Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara was his mind.The same material is described in different ways in the edition of Evans Wentz's 'The Tibtan Book of the Great Liberation.' Although it says that Guru Padmasambhava was an incarnation of Amitabha only, it also mentions the reason why Gautama was incarnated in his holy body and why Avalokitesvara joined the trinity of incarnations. Now, this is Buddhism.


A Nyingma lama taught that Guru Padmasambhava was an emanation of Amitabha. "Emanation" sounds a bit different than "incarnation" but never mind.
I think that this Nyingma lama is right but the further aspects of Gautama Buddha and Avalokitesvara you mention also make perfect sense.


Yeshe wrote:I think that major lineage masters such as Padmasabhava and Je Tsongkhapa may be seen as the embodiment of Shakyamuni, Vajradhara, Avalokiteshvara, Manjushri and Vajrapani. In turn, we may regard all Buddhas as of the 'same nature' as Shakyamuni.

Yes. This is also an appropriate view.
I have also come across the mention that actually Lama Tsongkhapa was a re-incarnation of Padmasabhava which makes sense too. Amitabha -> Guru Padmasambhava -> Lama Tsongkhapa


Kind regards
User avatar
ground
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:31 am

Next

Return to Nyingma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

>