The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

[Dhondrub]

To toss in my 2 euro cents into the discussion: Kyabje Tenga Rinpoche says that the deities appear to everyone in the Bardo, but the difference is if you can recognize them for what they are.

I mean you have to have some clue about what an old ugly prostitute is to recognize her when you meet her on the street.

best

tashi

[heart]

But I understood things a little differently. For me the reason why deities appear or not are secondary factors. That is unless you've received Shitro teachings there is no secondary factor through which the deities will manifest. In other words the potential that Shitro deities will appear is in everyone, but they won't unless there is a secondary factor. So in the same way I thought that the reason people see deities in thogal is because they received such teachings and practiced a lot with them. But if they hadn't they wouldn't. Though I wonder if there ever was/is anyone that is practicing Thogal who hasn't received and practiced any Deity teachings at all haha.

Well I seen Namdrol express this idea before and I think it is a fanciful idea but unfortunately there is no scriptural support for this that I know about. I feel that the problem is that you then say that the Tögal displays are dependent on the mind and that don't make much sense.

/magnus

[Pero]

Well I seen Namdrol express this idea before and I think it is a fanciful idea but unfortunately there is no scriptural support for this that I know about. I feel that the problem is that you then say that the Tögal displays are dependent on the mind and that don't make much sense.

Ahh, this never occured to me. However, how do you explain visions of things from ones life appearing? Or different people seeing different things?

And how does this then relate with what Brian said about purifying? Old prostitute's got to come from somewhere.

[Pema Rigdzin]

Well I seen Namdrol express this idea before and I think it is a fanciful idea but unfortunately there is no scriptural support for this that I know about. I feel that the problem is that you then say that the Tögal displays are dependent on the mind and that don't make much sense.

Ahh, this never occured to me. However, how do you explain visions of things from ones life appearing? Or different people seeing different things?

And how does this then relate with what Brian said about purifying? Old prostitute's got to come from somewhere.

You're confusing the mind-based experiences of the bardo of becoming with the togal visions here, Pero. In the bardo of becoming, one forms a bardo body and sees things from one's life that was just left behind and lots of things connected with ordinary mental consciousness are experienced... But the togal displays are different and are instead related to the bardo of dharmata, during which the sambhogakaya deities manifest. Let's just say that from the relative POV, there are aspects of the body that are karmic in nature and there are some that are wisdom in nature, and the togal visions are the direct revelation of the sambhogakaya pure realm and deities through reliance on the the body's aspects that are of the nature of wisdom. I can't really say much more, but when you eventually receive detailed teachings on the principles involved and explanation of what you see at first, and how the visions each may develop, it'll make much more sense. In any case, as interesting as this stuff is, nearly all of it's only relevant for a togal practitioner (which neither you nor I happen to be at this stage). Suffice it to say, none of it is based on mind and some sort of beliefs, so there will never come a time when you have to accept or reject something that's difficult to swallow. You will eventually just practice according to the instructions and your two eyes will see what they see and at that point you will be unconfused about whether or not it's the natural state through having gained stability in your tregchod.

P.S. I don't know whether everyone sees the Shitro deities as sambhogakaya deities in the bardo or not... Maybe they don't necessarily because that bardo is too short and they lack sufficient purification of obscurations, or maybe neither of those things factor into that bardo and everyone does see the deities. But I do know that a togal practitioner diligently and correctly practicing over a period of years is obviously in a different situation than a bardo being.

[heart]

Well I seen Namdrol express this idea before and I think it is a fanciful idea but unfortunately there is no scriptural support for this that I know about. I feel that the problem is that you then say that the Tögal displays are dependent on the mind and that don't make much sense.

Ahh, this never occured to me. However, how do you explain visions of things from ones life appearing? Or different people seeing different things?

And how does this then relate with what Brian said about purifying? Old prostitute's got to come from somewhere.

Like Pema says there are different stages of the Bardo. Old prostitute and the whole marvelous display of samsara including mind comes from ignorance.

/magnus

[Pero]

Ah could be I mixed stuff up, will check. Thanks Brian and Magnus.

[narraboth]

put in 2 cents more:

I remember I have heard one of my precious lama (Kyabje Penor Rinpoche I think) explaining the benefits of receiving Zhitro empowerments. He did say that one of them is to let you see Zhitro dieties in Bardo. But I think he means that you can recognise them or see them more easily; because he also said zhitro dieties 'already exist in you'.
(For the person who see, appearing but can't be seen is not different from not appearing; probably that's what Norbu Rinpoche meant)

However I have also heard a lama said if one always stayed in a different culture, he won't see exactly the same buddhist dieties as described; rigpa will show to him with different forms.

A deeper question: when we say all beings are dieties and the world is pureland palace, what kind of image do we have in mind? Base on Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche's view, usually that's still a make-up by our own minds, just a good practice though. Like Dewachen has very flat golden ground and with a lot of clean water pools, it's very cooling etc, DKR said it's because those sounds great for Indian people. For other country's people they might want some beautiful mountains or something keep you warm. Anyway the main idea is it's a pure and very nice place, details are not that important.
That's probably not a mainstream saying, but I think what he said kind of make sense.
Dzogchen says everything is extremely pure from the beginning, but the idea of what is pure and what is not pure are actually common thoughts. Rigpa is beyond that. And if it's common idea's pure, then it's not extremely pure, it can only be comparatively pure.

Anyway, an old hooker won't cause problem in Bardo, it's the scene of beautiful man and woman having sex very dangerous! (unless you are into older ladies)

[heart]

Anyway, an old hooker won't cause problem in Bardo, it's the scene of beautiful man and woman having sex very dangerous! (unless you are into older ladies)

well older ladies have difficulties getting pregnant...

/magnus

[ronnewmexico]

I have heard that initially it is the wanting to be involved in the compassion between the two partners that firstly occurs(the situation of that). Then from that one is drawn into the sex act and then from that finally to the reproductive organs themselves which are really not all that pretty.

If it didn't proceed in that fashion rebirth would be fairly easily stoppable. If it proceeds in that fashion it becomes almost impossible.

I have only heard this. But it seems to have substance as human birth is considered to be as a result of compassionate effect in some manner. Compassion then would be the basis not lust for bueaty which would perhaps be the basis for choice of a animal birth I would guess.
Its tendency would replicate in the actual form it would seem in how this occurs.

Be informed there is a diversity of opinion on this..."However I have also heard a lama said if one always stayed in a different culture, he won't see exactly the same buddhist dieties as described;
Some say yes some say no.

I am no lama certainly just a uneducated layperson with no accomplishment nor experience but I would guess for most they get only a glimpse. With a glimpse I find I unconsciously as perhaps a aspect of function of awareness fill in the gaps. I see a shadow in the trees at twilight, it being large seems a person. I come closer and find it is but another tree. Not that gross but I could see self filling in the gaps fairly easily even with a constantly studied object assumeing certain known characteristics. So I tend towards the no with the qualifier that what we see becomes culturally enhanced I would assume.
Just personal conjecture however.

[narraboth]

hiya, I guess if there's a difference among different culture people, probably it's not totally different, just like you wear a red sun-glass so that you see things as red. Just my guess.

And about how Bardo beings get into the womb, the common situation is that the being is attracted by the combination of man and woman. However it would also work when people don't have real intercourse. Like Bardo beings can still turn into fishes, and fishes usually don't intercourse, they just release their sperm and eggs.

I have read a very interesting article, made by the root guru of Khenpo Jigmed Phuntsok; the article is mainly to tell monks not to have sex. In the text, it describes semen/bindu as the ground where conciousness stand on, therefore after you ejeculate during sex, hundreds millions of Bardo conciousness would go on that. In the end only one being can successfully turn to human, all others would feel greatly disappointed like another death. If one holds bodhisattva vows, he should avoid that, the master said.

I don't know the theory is totally base on what masters 'see' how it works or they also heard something from western medical science.
Probably that will apply to pragnant prevented heterosexual sex. I don't know if it applies to masturbation or same sex intercourse.

[Adamantine]

I have read a very interesting article, made by the root guru of Khenpo Jigmed Phuntsok; the article is mainly to tell monks not to have sex. In the text, it describes semen/bindu as the ground where conciousness stand on, therefore after you ejeculate during sex, hundreds millions of Bardo conciousness would go on that. In the end only one being can successfully turn to human, all others would feel greatly disappointed like another death. If one holds bodhisattva vows, he should avoid that, the master said.

This sounds like a wild article. I wonder about the translation. Do you have a link, or any info on how to obtain a copy?