The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby heart » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:47 pm

Pero wrote:
heart wrote:I am this weekend doing a teaching on the development stage with Tulku Dakpa Rinpoche. He makes the point that as all inner tantra development stage depends on the three samdhis the practitioner need not only to have understood all the yanas below but also have a taste of the natural state. You can read the same in Tulku Urgyens books. Somewhere Tulku Urgyens says something like "the development stage is not pretending it is to realize how things actually are".


I'm not sure how common this view is though, since TUR was a shengtongpa.

If the development stage was just arising from the mind it would just be lies, the development stage have to arise from rigpa. This is a big subject actually.


TUR himself says that you can't achieve enlightenment through it alone, so it is a "lie".

In general the impression I got from reading his books is that TUR is teaching Dzogchen to Tantric practitioners. That's why he says things like the deity develops from the natural state. But you forget that not everyone of us has the capacity to understand the natural state. IMO you can practice deity transformation without understanding it. If it would not be so there wouldn't be three inner tantras, there'd be only one.


TUR was not a Shentong-pa, he was a Dzogchen-pa.

When TUR says you can't achieve enlightenment from development stage alone he is actually saying that you can't achieve enlightenment without wisdom, that you can't rely only on means. This is very clear if you read many of his teachings like I did. If you are capable of practicing inseparable development and completion stage you for sure can achieve enlightenment. So it is not a "lie".
Are you capable of experience everything in this world as inseparable purity and equality? No? Well that is the view of Mahayoga. It is not so far away from Atiyoga as you might think when reading a description of the nine yanas. Most Dzogchen cycles combine Maha, Anu and Ati in one way or an other. Not only that, I know cycles, like the Tukdrub Barche Kunsel, that are considered Mahayoga but still contains complete instruction for Maha, Anu and Ati. When I received the Lama Gondu, Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche said that Lama Gondu was a perfect and complete practice since it contained teachings for the complete three inner Tantras.
The distinction between the three inner Tantras are mainly on the emphasis they put on development stage, completion stage with signs and completion stage without signs. In the Nyingma everyone will try to apply the view according to Ati-yoga but since it isn't easy to rest in the natural state they will apply whatever means that make this easier. It is a bit childish to think that just because you practice a Mahayoga sadhana you will try to apply the Mahayoga view if you allready recieved direct introduction to the natural state. This was also the way TUR taught. Believe me he did put a lot of emphasis on doing Ngondro and development stage while applying the view of Ati-yoga.

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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby heart » Sun Oct 10, 2010 4:55 pm

Pero wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:Well, one might tend to think of the emptiness of the Dharmakaya as "the way things truly are," but we can't forget that all three kayas are primordially complete within rigpa... Consider the togal displays, which are self-arising and not at all mentally-created. Rigpa encompasses both primordial purity and spontaneous presence; it "abides" as no "thing" at all while it may appear as anything at all.


Yeah, so it doesn't follow it has to appear as a deity right?


But they do, don't they? If you are a very good Tögal practitioner you will in fact see the deities. The way the appear is connected with the Samboghakaya that is the source of all deities. So the deities are the way things actually are.

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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pero » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:43 pm

heart wrote:TUR was not a Shentong-pa, he was a Dzogchen-pa.


Yes but he was also a Shengtong-pa, right? Or I don't remember right (which is entirely possible)?

When TUR says you can't achieve enlightenment from development stage alone he is actually saying that you can't achieve enlightenment without wisdom, that you can't rely only on means. This is very clear if you read many of his teachings like I did. If you are capable of practicing inseparable development and completion stage you for sure can achieve enlightenment. So it is not a "lie".


I never said that was a lie. :smile:

...
It is a bit childish to think that just because you practice a Mahayoga sadhana you will try to apply the Mahayoga view if you allready recieved direct introduction to the natural state. This was also the way TUR taught. Believe me he did put a lot of emphasis on doing Ngondro and development stage while applying the view of Ati-yoga.


I never did think otherwise.

But they do, don't they? If you are a very good Tögal practitioner you will in fact see the deities. The way the appear is connected with the Samboghakaya that is the source of all deities. So the deities are the way things actually are.


I'm not a Togal practitioner so I don't know experientally (or if I did I wouldn't be talking about it publicly). But from what I've heard Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche say about it, and from my meager understanding of the Dzogchen teachings in general, I don't believe what you say is true. To me it just seems like the Tantric idea of Pure/Impure vision is being imported. Though practically this doesn't make much difference.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby heart » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:11 pm

Pero wrote:
heart wrote:TUR was not a Shentong-pa, he was a Dzogchen-pa.


Yes but he was also a Shengtong-pa, right? Or I don't remember right (which is entirely possible)?


Never seen that he expressed any opinion on that subject.
When TUR says you can't achieve enlightenment from development stage alone he is actually saying that you can't achieve enlightenment without wisdom, that you can't rely only on means. This is very clear if you read many of his teachings like I did. If you are capable of practicing inseparable development and completion stage you for sure can achieve enlightenment. So it is not a "lie".


I never said that was a lie. :smile:


No, you said it was a "lie" :smile:

...
It is a bit childish to think that just because you practice a Mahayoga sadhana you will try to apply the Mahayoga view if you allready recieved direct introduction to the natural state. This was also the way TUR taught. Believe me he did put a lot of emphasis on doing Ngondro and development stage while applying the view of Ati-yoga.


I never did think otherwise.

But they do, don't they? If you are a very good Tögal practitioner you will in fact see the deities. The way the appear is connected with the Samboghakaya that is the source of all deities. So the deities are the way things actually are.


I'm not a Togal practitioner so I don't know experientally (or if I did I wouldn't be talking about it publicly). But from what I've heard Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche say about it, and from my meager understanding of the Dzogchen teachings in general, I don't believe what you say is true. To me it just seems like the Tantric idea of Pure/Impure vision is being imported. Though practically this doesn't make much difference.


I haven't seen a single Dzogchen text that say that the deities don't appear. The source of what I said is by the way TUR.

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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pero » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:38 pm

heart wrote:No, you said it was a "lie" :smile:


LOL! Yeah, but I was just going off of what you said. You're the one that said that development stage without completion stage was a lie. I only sort of agree with that so I said it is a "lie". :rolling:

I haven't seen a single Dzogchen text that say that the deities don't appear. The source of what I said is by the way TUR.


Oh yes, but is that all that can appear? I don't think so.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby heart » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:31 pm

Pero wrote:
heart wrote:I haven't seen a single Dzogchen text that say that the deities don't appear. The source of what I said is by the way TUR.


Oh yes, but is that all that can appear? I don't think so.


No, but they always do appear. If you read about the four visions it is obvious. Your problem is that you don't understand that Ati-yoga is Tantra.

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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pero » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:01 pm

heart wrote:No, but they always do appear. If you read about the four visions it is obvious.


I'm not saying they don't. But according to you, they appear because they are our real condition. So then you come into a bit of a problem when instead of Avalokitshvara you see an ugly old prostitute. Is an ugly old prostitute your real condition too? If by some chance you say no, then the deity is not either. If you say yes, then saying that the deity is your real condition is pretty much trivial, no?

Also, let me ask you this, do you believe the Shitro deities appear to everyone when in the Bardo of Dharmata?

Your problem is that you don't understand that Ati-yoga is Tantra.


Why do you think this is important? This is just a classification for me, practically I don't see that it's important if it's Tantra or not.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby narraboth » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:31 pm

hey guys, just to add something you might have known:

The 'things' you have seen or will see in Toghal, don't have real selfness. If you take it as real, you are lost. When you start to argue 'it will appear' or not, you already have expectation (hope or fear), which is one of reasons people shouldn't read Dzogchen books too early. That's also the reason why many masters tell us 'have a firm Checho base first!'

Even someone has experienced some scene, he can only speak for his own experience. And even there is a tantra talking about general situations, it's still possible to have exceptions and personal differences, otherwise we don't need a lama.

Anyway, is it that important? When you see it, you will know, right?
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby ground » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:30 am

Luke wrote:Lately I have been thinking that I might later want to switch to the Nyingma school


I think to commit oneself to only one school has more disadvantages than advantages.

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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Luke » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:43 am

TMingyur wrote:I think to commit oneself to only one school has more disadvantages than advantages.

That's debatable. I think it makes sense to focus on one school until one has learned all the material which is taught in a traditional three-year retreat in that school (Ngondro; generation stage; completion stage; Mahamudra, Dzogchen, or the Six Kalachakra Yogas). At which point, one can probably later add in advanced teachings from other schools if one so chooses, without mixing things up and becoming confused.

But still, I am willing to listen to good Dharma teachings from lamas of any tradition. It's not like I cover my ears every time I see H.H. Sakya Trizin appear in a video.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pero » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:11 am

narraboth wrote:hey guys, just to add something you might have known:

The 'things' you have seen or will see in Toghal, don't have real selfness. If you take it as real, you are lost. When you start to argue 'it will appear' or not, you already have expectation (hope or fear), which is one of reasons people shouldn't read Dzogchen books too early. That's also the reason why many masters tell us 'have a firm Checho base first!'

Even someone has experienced some scene, he can only speak for his own experience. And even there is a tantra talking about general situations, it's still possible to have exceptions and personal differences, otherwise we don't need a lama.

Anyway, is it that important? When you see it, you will know, right?


True enough, thanks. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby ground » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:30 am

Luke wrote:
TMingyur wrote:I think to commit oneself to only one school has more disadvantages than advantages.

That's debatable. I think it makes sense to focus on one school until one has learned all the material which is taught in a traditional three-year retreat in that school (Ngondro; generation stage; completion stage; Mahamudra, Dzogchen, or the Six Kalachakra Yogas). At which point, one can probably later add in advanced teachings from other schools if one so chooses, without mixing things up and becoming confused.

But still, I am willing to listen to good Dharma teachings from lamas of any tradition. It's not like I cover my ears every time I see H.H. Sakya Trizin appear in a video.


I see. From a vajrayana-in-its-narrower-sense-perspective it may make sense.

But I have to admit that I am not really into this vajrayana, so that perhaps explains my thought.

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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:42 am

OK Pero, lemme give this another shot. All the questions you've asked since I last posted were exactly what I was trying to find the words to touch on but realized I needed to scrap my post and come back fresh.

So, what determines whether one perceives rigpa's own radiance as the course five elements or five wisdom lights is whether or not one has obscurations and how thick they are, right? Sentient beings and even aryas to a certain level still have the obscurations that cause them to perceive rigpa's own radiance as the course five elements, and aryas past a certain level naturally perceive it as a sambhogakaya pureland made of light. As long as there are still sentient beings and aryas who haven't attained buddhahood, these displays will ceaselessly appear according to their karma and obscurations.

So, to recapitulate my point, while Chenrezig may appear to one as an old prostitute or in some sambhogakaya form, and either one is equally rigpa's own radiance, whether or not one perceives the prostitute or the sambhogakaya deity depends on how obscured one is. The less obscured, the more refined the appearance of reality. For one who practices togal, the teachings say that by observing the key points of the practice, one's natural way of perceiving rigpa's own radiance will gradually be purified to be less and less ordinary and eventually one will naturally perceive everything as a sambhogakaya realm continuously... But ultimately, the fruition of the fourth and final vision transcends even that.

Regarding your question to Magnus about whether or not everyone will see the Shitro deities during the Bardo... The source of the deities of the Shitro mandala seen in the bardo and of the togal displays are one in the same and are present within one's own body. Togal involves applying key points of practice to purify karmic vision and reveal that display now in this very life and for one to realize absolutely and completely that it is not something other, that it is rigpa's own radiance. A major difference in inner tantric generation stage is that one is starting out by visualizing the sambhogakaya rather than just witnessing it naturally arising because it is no longer obscured. Of course, when visualizing the generation stage, one's always gonna visualize Chenrezig and his pureland, etc according to one's sadhana, while Chenrezig in actuality is not somehow restricted to only appearing certain ways, such as a certain color, with a certain number of arms and legs and certain robes and implements, or in male form, etc. I'm sure at a very advanced stage the visualization gets closer to the real thing and takes on a natural life of its own, though.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:57 am

narraboth wrote:hey guys, just to add something you might have known:

The 'things' you have seen or will see in Toghal, don't have real selfness. If you take it as real, you are lost. When you start to argue 'it will appear' or not, you already have expectation (hope or fear), which is one of reasons people shouldn't read Dzogchen books too early. That's also the reason why many masters tell us 'have a firm Checho base first!'

Even someone has experienced some scene, he can only speak for his own experience. And even there is a tantra talking about general situations, it's still possible to have exceptions and personal differences, otherwise we don't need a lama.

Anyway, is it that important? When you see it, you will know, right?


It is true that what is seen in togal has no self-nature, and it's true that one needs stability in tregchod before togal, but it is not hope and fear to say that the displays will unfold according to the explanations of the four visions; it is relying on both the scriptural authority of the Dzogchen tantras and the words of the Dzogchen masters in the lineage who have experienced the practice for themselves and confirmed what's stated in the tantras. The masters are unanimous in their explanations of how the four visions unfold. This principle of reliance on the Dharma of scriptural transmission and the Dharma of realization is the same as in any other level of Dharma - until we've attained for ourselves the fruition of whatever level we engage in, from the Shravakayana on up to Dzogchen, all we have to rely on is our own reason-based trust in the scriptures and the realization of the masters.

But your last point is absolutely true. It's not important at all and when we see it, we will know. And if we have proceeded correctly by first gaining stability in tregchod, then when our lamas begin to guide us in togal, we will have already freed ourselves from the tendency to seize onto whatever appears at the time of tregchod, so we won't seize onto the togal visions as real and instead we'll "know" completely that it's rigpa's own radiance.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby narraboth » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:22 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
narraboth wrote:hey guys, just to add something you might have known:

The 'things' you have seen or will see in Toghal, don't have real selfness. If you take it as real, you are lost. When you start to argue 'it will appear' or not, you already have expectation (hope or fear), which is one of reasons people shouldn't read Dzogchen books too early. That's also the reason why many masters tell us 'have a firm Checho base first!'

Even someone has experienced some scene, he can only speak for his own experience. And even there is a tantra talking about general situations, it's still possible to have exceptions and personal differences, otherwise we don't need a lama.

Anyway, is it that important? When you see it, you will know, right?


It is true that what is seen in togal has no self-nature, and it's true that one needs stability in tregchod before togal, but it is not hope and fear to say that the displays will unfold according to the explanations of the four visions; it is relying on both the scriptural authority of the Dzogchen tantras and the words of the Dzogchen masters in the lineage who have experienced the practice for themselves and confirmed what's stated in the tantras. The masters are unanimous in their explanations of how the four visions unfold. This principle of reliance on the Dharma of scriptural transmission and the Dharma of realization is the same as in any other level of Dharma - until we've attained for ourselves the fruition of whatever level we engage in, from the Shravakayana on up to Dzogchen, all we have to rely on is our own reason-based trust in the scriptures and the realization of the masters.

But your last point is absolutely true. It's not important at all and when we see it, we will know. And if we have proceeded correctly by first gaining stability in tregchod, then when our lamas begin to guide us in togal, we will have already freed ourselves from the tendency to seize onto whatever appears at the time of tregchod, so we won't seize onto the togal visions as real and instead we'll "know" completely that it's rigpa's own radiance.


Hi, I was not saying that 'knowing what might happen' will surely lead to hope and fear. But I think if you don't have a firm Dzogchen view, it will usually. Or why masters ask people not to read togal book first?

Like a famous Dzogchen master in Tibet said: people read books first and have expectation in mind, so in the beginning they think 'will I see that?' 'how long does it take for me to see that?' 'I see something, is it right?', tons of thoughts, which harm their practice. He said why there are details explanations in books is to let people who have experience already to confirm what they see.

I am not very sure when you say 'This principle of reliance on the Dharma of scriptural transmission and the Dharma of realization is the same as in any other level of Dharma' I havn't heard in other yanas that teachers will ask students not to read the books before practice. Probably they are not totally the same, as you know Dzogchen is 'beyond words, beyond realisation, beyond mind experiences.' And what realisation people should have before is the teaching about how to have a firm trekcho view rather than what you will see in togal.

Well, I know people read them already anyway and they can't remove that from brains; but at least people can try to have trekcho view firmer and not to be too 'sticky' about what you will see or what the text says. In the end it doesn't help and it doesn't matter because whatever you will see, is the play of rigpa.

About if everyone will see zhitro dieties in Bardo, I have heard some lama said no, first saying is people will see images base on their karma and habits, another saying is that common people have too unstable mind so that the time of zhitro appearance is too short to be recognised. I am not sure what is real,... how can we know?
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby heart » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:10 pm

TMingyur wrote:
Luke wrote:
TMingyur wrote:I think to commit oneself to only one school has more disadvantages than advantages.

That's debatable. I think it makes sense to focus on one school until one has learned all the material which is taught in a traditional three-year retreat in that school (Ngondro; generation stage; completion stage; Mahamudra, Dzogchen, or the Six Kalachakra Yogas). At which point, one can probably later add in advanced teachings from other schools if one so chooses, without mixing things up and becoming confused.

But still, I am willing to listen to good Dharma teachings from lamas of any tradition. It's not like I cover my ears every time I see H.H. Sakya Trizin appear in a video.


I see. From a vajrayana-in-its-narrower-sense-perspective it may make sense.

But I have to admit that I am not really into this vajrayana, so that perhaps explains my thought.

Kind regards


The important point in Vajrayana is not to stick with one lineage as that is slightly sectarian. The main point is that you have to find a qualified Guru try to become a qualified student. Vajrayana depend on this.

/magnus
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Luke » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:35 pm

heart wrote:The important point in Vajrayana is not to stick with one lineage as that is slightly sectarian. The main point is that you have to find a qualified Guru try to become a qualified student. Vajrayana depend on this.

Yes, having a qualified guru is the main point, but sometimes that guru will only know one lineage. Is it then sectarian to learn most things only from him?

Perhaps you were talking about very knowledgeable lamas who know teachings from many different lineages, like Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche did, for example. In that case, I think it's no problem because the information is still coming from one source and the lama has experience in how to combine teachings from different schools effectively. If Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche had come up to me and said, "You know, I think you'd really benefit from a Gelug sadhana I know...," then I wouldn't hesitate a second and would follow his instructions.

However, if one learns from many lamas of different lineages without any of them really being one's main lama, then I would think it would be easy to get confused and to combine the teachings in ineffective ways, which would result in little progress. I don't think it would be good to complete a Gelug Ngondro then to do a Sakya generation stage sadhana then to do a Kagyu completion stage sadhana and then to do the Jonang Six Kalachakra Yogas. Or perhaps I'm wrong. Can such radical mixtures succeed?

I see no reason to complicate things for myself: one teacher, one lineage--that's plenty for me. I don't do this out of hatred of the other lineages. I just don't want to get confused or to try to do too many things at once.

Anyway, Nyingma has got everything I'm looking for: profound methods for the generation and completion stages, tsa-lung, and Dzogchen. If could learn to do those things well, I'd feel very fortunate, and I doubt that I'd feel like I was missing something.

But if any of you have suggestions how to effectively combine teachings from different lineages so that they add to up to effective progress in the long term, I'd be interested in hearing them.
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby heart » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:03 pm

Luke wrote:
heart wrote:The important point in Vajrayana is not to stick with one lineage as that is slightly sectarian. The main point is that you have to find a qualified Guru try to become a qualified student. Vajrayana depend on this.

Yes, having a qualified guru is the main point, but sometimes that guru will only know one lineage. Is it then sectarian to learn most things only from him?

Perhaps you were talking about very knowledgeable lamas who know teachings from many different lineages, like Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche did, for example. In that case, I think it's no problem because the information is still coming from one source and the lama has experience in how to combine teachings from different schools effectively. If Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche had come up to me and said, "You know, I think you'd really benefit from a Gelug sadhana I know...," then I wouldn't hesitate a second and would follow his instructions.

However, if one learns from many lamas of different lineages without any of them really being one's main lama, then I would think it would be easy to get confused and to combine the teachings in ineffective ways, which would result in little progress. I don't think it would be good to complete a Gelug Ngondro then to do a Sakya generation stage sadhana then to do a Kagyu completion stage sadhana and then to do the Jonang Six Kalachakra Yogas. Or perhaps I'm wrong. Can such radical mixtures succeed?

I see no reason to complicate things for myself: one teacher, one lineage--that's plenty for me. I don't do this out of hatred of the other lineages. I just don't want to get confused or to try to do too many things at once.

Anyway, Nyingma has got everything I'm looking for: profound methods for the generation and completion stages, tsa-lung, and Dzogchen. If could learn to do those things well, I'd feel very fortunate, and I doubt that I'd feel like I was missing something.

But if any of you have suggestions how to effectively combine teachings from different lineages so that they add to up to effective progress in the long term, I'd be interested in hearing them.


If you just follow your teacher you are not sectarian. In the Nyingma there are some many different traditions like Jangter, Dudjom Tersar, Chokling Tersar, Lonhchen Nyingtik and so on. Each tradition can contain numerous Terma cycles that each can have one or many Ngondros, Yidams and many kind of instructions. To only fully practice a few practices within in a Terma cycle can take a very long time. So for the most of us just following whatever our root guru suggest is more than enough. That of course doesn't mean that someone with higher capacity could practice many different practices from many different traditions and benefit from that. In fact teachers like Dilgo Khyentse showed us that this very possible. In general it is a question to keep a very open mind.

I actually did a full Karma Kagyu Ngondro first but have been practicing almost exclusively Chokling Tersar for many years now.

/magnus
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby heart » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:21 pm

Pero wrote:
heart wrote:No, but they always do appear. If you read about the four visions it is obvious.


I'm not saying they don't. But according to you, they appear because they are our real condition. So then you come into a bit of a problem when instead of Avalokitshvara you see an ugly old prostitute. Is an ugly old prostitute your real condition too? If by some chance you say no, then the deity is not either. If you say yes, then saying that the deity is your real condition is pretty much trivial, no?

Also, let me ask you this, do you believe the Shitro deities appear to everyone when in the Bardo of Dharmata?

Your problem is that you don't understand that Ati-yoga is Tantra.


Why do you think this is important? This is just a classification for me, practically I don't see that it's important if it's Tantra or not.


Well my particular true nature probably looks exactly like a ugly prostitute. :smile: Seriously, I'm not sure what we disagree about. :smile: All Dzogchen texts mention that the deities appear just as all Dzogchen Bardo teachings do. I don't find it stranger than that we humans appear with two arms and two legs and a head. Why couldn't there appear deities in the Samboghakaya that looks similar (but with a few more arms legs and heads)? If our true nature are deities and our houses actually are celestial palaces then that would actually make more sense that the already enlightened beings choose to communicate with us in forms we can relate to. The Samboghakaya can appear in any form they choose. The limitless capacity of compassion.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

Postby Pero » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:18 pm

Brian, thanks for the explanation. I didn't post a direct reply because it's easier for me to continue from what Magnus is saying here.

heart wrote:Well my particular true nature probably looks exactly like a ugly prostitute. :smile:


LOL, I nearly choked on my yogurt when I read that. :rolling:

Seriously, I'm not sure what we disagree about. :smile:


Well hehe, perhaps we actually don't for the most part. Maybe it just seems that way to me sometiems since I know less and am not so clear on thing like you and others.

All Dzogchen texts mention that the deities appear just as all Dzogchen Bardo teachings do. I don't find it stranger than that we humans appear with two arms and two legs and a head. Why couldn't there appear deities in the Samboghakaya that looks similar (but with a few more arms legs and heads)? If our true nature are deities and our houses actually are celestial palaces then that would actually make more sense that the already enlightened beings choose to communicate with us in forms we can relate to. The Samboghakaya can appear in any form they choose. The limitless capacity of compassion.


I think I understand what you're saying here. But there seems to be some differing opinions regarding this like Narraboth said. Norbu Rinpoche says Shitro deities don't appear to everyone, only to people who have contact with Shitro teachings. Now I suppose this can be explained with what Brian said, that it depends on how obscured one is. I assume someone who received and practiced Shitro will be less obscured than someone who hasn't. Or like you said (unless I misunderstood), that the Sambhogakaya deities still appear but just in another form.

But I understood things a little differently. For me the reason why deities appear or not are secondary factors. That is unless you've received Shitro teachings there is no secondary factor through which the deities will manifest. In other words the potential that Shitro deities will appear is in everyone, but they won't unless there is a secondary factor. So in the same way I thought that the reason people see deities in thogal is because they received such teachings and practiced a lot with them. But if they hadn't they wouldn't. Though I wonder if there ever was/is anyone that is practicing Thogal who hasn't received and practiced any Deity teachings at all haha.

I suppose we might be actually saying pretty much the same thing and I'm just not seeing it. In the end I think that practically it doesn't actually make any difference, but I find it an interesting/informative discussion. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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