The compatibility of Nyingma and Kagyu?

[Luke]

Lately I have been thinking that I might later want to switch to the Nyingma school and perhaps eventually do a Nyingma three-year retreat.

If I complete Ngondro with a Kagyu lama, would that "count" for most Nyingma lamas or would I most likely have to do Ngondro again in the Nyingma style before a Nyingma lama would give me further teachings? In general, how "compatible" are Nyingma and Kagyu teachings? It's my understanding that they both have a similar view, but different methods. It seems that it would still be possible to be a Nyingmapa and to receive teachings from Kagyu lamas. I know that in modern times, everybody is doing everything, but I am asking what is proper from a traditional standpoint.

I also greatly dislike the negativity which the Karmapa controversy has created. It's like a big wound cutting the Kagyu school in two. Lamas on one side often don't trust lamas on the other side, and this often leads to feelings of tension and other very non-Buddhist states of mind. I don't think the Nyingma school has any similar problems.

Anyway, I always think about Guru Rinpoche, and I'm sure his methods are quite sufficient for attaining enlightenment.

OM AH HUNG BENZA GURU PEMA SIDDHI HUNG

[heart]

Hi Luke,

My Guru, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, hold both the Kagyu and Nyingma lineages. I did a complete Karma Kagyu Ngondro but have after that mainly practiced the terma teachings from the Chokling Tersar.
I have been practicing partial Ngondros from various cycles of the Chokling Tersar. In general there are many more Ngondros in the Nyingma. Almost all major terma cycles have a particular Ngondro. Many of my of my friends have practiced many complete Ngondros. To answer your Ngondro question I would say that at least my Guru counts the Kagyu Ngondro, but all teachers seem to differ in opinion about this.

About the Karmapa story I do understand what you say and I have had similar experiences. But last weekend I met Mingyur Rinpoche and received teachings from him and he made my devotion for the Kagyu lamas bloom again. An amazing teacher his "path of liberation" teachings are wonderful. Made me completly forget about the Karmapa dispute.

Anyway, there is a close relation between Kagyu and Nyingma schools. Read books like "Blazing Splendor" and "Brilliant Moon" and you will see.

/magnus

[narraboth]

hi,

Some lama think it's ok, you can 'use' your kagyu ngondro. Some might ask you to do guruyoga again but not other parts because obviously the guruyoga is quite different. Some might ask you do new system ngondro only 1/10 amount. Some might ask you to do everything again even when you just want to transfer one nyingma terma cycle to another. If you want to know 'traditional way', that's the strict traditional way. (But do you know that traditionally some tulku never finish ngondro? well, of course they are tulku, we are nothing )

But I think the point is not if you would need to do it again. The point is if you really feel strong linked with that lama and lineage. If yes and you trust him a lot, then just follow what he thinks best for you. Doing ngondro is not a punishment, you are purifying yourself and accumulating merit; even you doing again, it will only do more good for you.

[Luke]

Hi Narraboth,

Thanks for the info. I was just curious about how these things worked.

I share your opinion of Ngondro completely. In fact, I am incredibly eager to start it! Part of my present frustration is that my current Kagyu lama won't let me start Ngondro until I have completed a one-week lojong retreat and then done a Ngondro retreat. I am completely willing to do this, but the problem is that my sangha never seems to have these retreats at a time when I'm not working, and I have a new job now, so I don't want to push for time off just yet. It's a problem of "schedule karma."

I know my lama isn't trying to hold me back intentionally, but I find resentful feelings arising within myself which aren't good because of this situation. I feel that Ngondro is the real beginning of Tantric Buddhism, and I feel like an outsider left out in the cold until I begin it.

In any case, since my heart seems to be shifting to the Nyingma school, perhaps it's best that I haven't started Ngondro yet with a Kagyu lama. Maybe I'll eventually find a Nyingma lama who will give me permission to begin a Nyingma Ngondro.

[Pema Rigdzin]

Hey Luke,

I can totally understand your strong desire to get started with ngondro, and of course your frustration at your difficulty coordinating the time off for the retreat the lama instructed you to do first. But honestly, as far as getting going with the ngondro, I wish I would have taken time at the beginning to do a thorough retreat on nothing but the 4 mind changers (bka the 4 thoughts that turn the mind from samsara) and lojong, etc. I say this after having received and practiced teachings on everything from sutra to atiyoga.

I was really inspired by an anecdote one of our lamas was telling a group of us on a Dzogchen retreat a couple yrs ago about how he and his fellow monks at his monastery, who were on a long retreat that would culminate with Dzogchen practice, started with something like a week-long period of nothing but contemplation of the 4 mind changers, spending a day or two on each one. He told of how they each made a commitment to not to allow their minds to stray into mundane thoughts but instead to only contemplate whichever of the 4 mind changers they were focusing on until that section of the retreat was done. There's really, really something to be said for systematically and thoroughly going step by step. When you're practicing Dzogchen or Mahamudra at some point, that kind of foundation in each level of teaching from sutra to Dzogchen/Mahamudra will be incredibly valuable. The mental diligence and self-discipline alone that would come from that foundation will be a great benefit in keeping whatever main practice you end up with on track and not all wobbly (i.e. getting overpowered often by doubts and heavy dualistic view and strong emotional habits, bouts of laziness, etc.) Not to mention the taming and settling of the mind that moving step by step very thoroughly will likely cause, which will facilitate things down the road like actually being able to recognize the nature of your mind when you receive those instructions (and especially when you practice them on retreat).

Just some words of advice from a guy who has had to do his fair share of going back to focus on the basics and establish some stability there after itching to focus more on the "more advanced" teachings he received before it was time for that.

P.S. the four mind changers are something that while being part of the ngondro, you can start focusing on right this minute because they are not tantric but the most fundamental Dharma.

[narraboth]

dear luke

I think what your Kagyu lama told is actually the traditional way.... In Nyingma, we also have 'four common ngondro', which is similar to lojong. Traditionally people should have a four common ngondro retreat first, but most of case is that people can do it at the same time. Lojong or four common ngondro or say 'four methods to change your mind' is necessary all the way anyway, not just in the beginning. I think if you find a nyingma lama, he will be happy to give you premission to start ngondro. And it shouldn't be that difficult since you are in europe; it's easy to take bus or train to travel i think?

I personally can recommand two very good nyingma lamas whom will be recently in europe. One is Gangteng tulku rinpoche, who is currently in europe (I think), please check his schedule on website. Another one is Terton Namkai Drime rinpoche, who will come to europe during christmas. You can try to contact their centres see what will happen.

[Luke]

Thanks for your replies, guys. Again I don't have anything against doing things the traditional way or making slow progress--I just want to make sure that there will be progress. Right now, because of the fact that no one else in my sangha seems to have the same kind of schedule as me, I'm not very confident that I can make any progress with this sangha. However, I think my current lama has transmitted the essence of relative bodhichitta to me, and for this I'll always be grateful.

I'm a teacher, so I have the summers off and I would like to use this to my advantage. My current sangha hardly has any events (and none which will bring me any closer to starting Ngondro) over the summer and this is really the source of my frustration. I guess I need to find Nyingma sanghas who have significant summer events in Europe.

I was really inspired by an anecdote one of our lamas was telling a group of us on a Dzogchen retreat a couple yrs ago about how he and his fellow monks at his monastery, who were on a long retreat that would culminate with Dzogchen practice, started with something like a week-long period of nothing but contemplation of the 4 mind changers, spending a day or two on each one.

Yes, progressing systematically is the way to go, but there is a key difference between being in a long retreat and being in my situation. If you're in a long retreat, you can be confident that you will advance as long as you stay there. You can look at the schedule and see, "Okay, during year 2, we'll be doing Tsa-Lung" and be very motivated during all foundation practices. But right now the schedule of my sangha's more serious retreats is totally unpredictable and lately many of these retreats have been cancelled. Practicing outside of a long retreat is just bouncing on the waves of karma and the necessary contact between lama and student is not assured.

Perhaps, it's just a sign for me to move on. After reading and thinking about only Kagyu stuff for the past couple years, I now find it exciting to learn about the Nyingma school.

[Pema Rigdzin]

Luke,

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not discouraging you from exploring other options and approaches and lamas and sanghas that may resonate more with you, or from aspiring to begin ngondro, etc. I do have to say though that in the super traditional environment of monastic or ngakpa long retreat, one would go into it knowing where it should or could lead but without the certainty that one's lama wouldn't tell you that instead of progressing to the next level you need to do whatever you just finished doing all over again. That might mean the 4 thoughts, maybe ngondro, maybe something else. One never knows what obstacles may arise, what obscurations may still persist after completing the usual amount of a certain practice. For example, while still undergoing their training, many great lamas were told by their lamas to repeat ngondro more than once before being given the green light to progress to another practice, or do much more generation stage before moving on to tsa-lung, etc. And of course, even if you do all the khorde rushen practices the prescribed amounts, if at the end you haven't recognized rigpa, there's nowhere to go but back to khorde rushen.

As for long retreat vs daily practice at home, you may be underestimating how much the waves of karma can really get to raging during long retreat. A friend of mine who's done two very traditional 3 yr retreats said something like after a few months of strict retreat, even the paint on the wall of his meditation room seemed to be a personal affront to him lol. Group retreat? Ridiculous tension and tempers and attitudes flaring. Solitary retreat? All kinds of flare-ups of frustration, boredom, loneliness, wild thoughts and emotions can pop up. Now, I do believe that retreat is very important and, if one makes the right preparations, gradually eases into it, and if one is fortunate not to have too many obstacles, that's the ideal situation for making progress one can then later carry out into the rat race. But every moment of sincere and correct Dharma practice generates merit and wisdom and purifies obscurations, so there's no need to feel pessimistic about practice outside of retreat. You can also work on creating the causes to go on retreat by sponsoring or making donations toward others' retreats and helping others do retreat however you can.

[Luke]

One never knows what obstacles may arise, what obscurations may still persist after completing the usual amount of a certain practice. For example, while still undergoing their training, many great lamas were told by their lamas to repeat ngondro more than once before being given the green light to progress to another practice, or do much more generation stage before moving on to tsa-lung, etc.

What you say is very true, but it still implies a system of being periodically evaluated by one's lama and getting meaningful feedback from him/her, which I like very much. I think my current lama forgets exactly which stages his students are at, so that's what makes me paranoid that he'll just forget about me, and that I'll just languish in the same sangha for years without having achieved very much. When I meet with him, his answer is basically, "Well, you should try and set up a retreat with some other sangha members," and I try to do it and then the times I propose don't work for anyone else, so I just end up stuck.

As for long retreat vs daily practice at home, you may be underestimating how much the waves of karma can really get to raging during long retreat.

Hehe, perhaps you're right, but I still want to try.

Finding the right situation with the right lama can be quite challenging sometimes...

I've received a Vajrasattva empowerment, so I suppose I could recite the 100-syllable mantra, regardless of whether I get permission to begin Ngondro or not. Vajrasattva...the lord of Tantric Buddhism... I could use some of that right now.... Like you say, Ngondro is an ongoing process, so I might as well get used to that mantra. I suppose I could also prostrate to images of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas as well. Even if it won't "count" for Ngondro, it will still "count" by generating positive karma.

[ronnewmexico]

I guess I must be from some different place or time or some other world perhaps..

"I think my current lama forgets exactly which stages his students are at"...how does one have a current lama?
Seven years time can be used to select a lama. All lamas one listens to are not their lamas. If one has not a lama then it is not a question of direction by a lama. One has not yet established a specific direction. I certainly would not choose one who forgets such things. Nor would I consider myself to have a current lama nor be a student of one if one could be found to exist.

I would suggest if a lama appears to forget such things.. it is not such but a approach, Such approach may not be to a perspective students likeing so before accepting this lama as ones own, one may reconsider the prospective choice.

So a retreat at retreat house being directed by a lama there would seemingly be no problem.
A summer retreat if so desired. Many places have singlular retreat settings with direction by lamas at the retreat houses. If one wants a specific thing in retreat, one has not yet selected a lama so many options may be available. A teacher who is not ones lama may direct one in that fashion or not.

If ones lama was actually ones lama, one could state intent and then ask for the lamas assistance for guidance in the retreat. What to focus on and how to proceed.

But this is seemingly not so. To my opinion ones lama remains ones lama even beyond death.
There are no current lamas.

Vajrasattava practice is a great thing. Many accomplished master such as Thrangu Rinpoche of the Kagyu tradition engage such still. I have no accomplishment but do so. Prostrations are also great for many peoples. A training in such could be certainly found and a entire three month retreat could also focus on this thing. I have personally seen retreatants who do that. A entire three months could be likewise spent with Vajrasattava practice. If one has the empowerment probably even a "temporary" lama would fully endorse that and provide some direction.

How is one to engage any advanced tantric practice without a lama is beyond my comprehension. To this, to that, to this....and then engage advanced tantric practice...

Find a lama first!! Then do all that. That is my opinion.
Or else stick with the basics. There is no incompatibility between Nyingma and Kagyu to my opinion.

[Luke]

how does one have a current lama?

What I meant by "current lama" is "the lama who I'm currently learning from" or "the lama who leads the sangha which I'm currently involved with."

But you make some good points, Ron. The lama-to-student relationship should be a trusting and deep one. I guess I am still looking for "my lama."

[ronnewmexico]

I edited my last line...but the point is...I think finding a lama is the most important thing as a first step before engageing a advanced tantric process.

That appears the direction. So....a lama must be found. Hence the current difficult situation. It all revolves around no lama.

A far away lama is not a bad thing.
A three valleys away lama in Tibet was considered by many the best.
Three valleys means not so close so one can see their faults to clearly but remain with their intent.
So don't restrict the search by geography.
Other teachers may be refered by the core lama for specific practices as the lama is not available.
So you may have your cake and eat it to.
You must meet with prospective lamas tell them your plans and find who would work for you.
The current teacher does not. Why go it alone..you make difficulties for yourself.

To add....finding a a lama means also one must be accepted by a lama. It can be a formal process which is a bit involved depending upon lama and takes a bit to engage. They do not automatically accept you as a student. You must be found in a sense worthy of their time. And they yours.
But in the interium you can do basic practices. It may take a few months.

And having a personal meeting and asking for a teaching may be considered by some to be asking that lama to be your personal instructor. So there are cultural nuances to this thing. I would be very clear and do not in any fashion just....feel one to be your lama. This is not a love affair. I cannot count how many people have seen such love affairs go wrong. One certainly ends up loving a lama but it is not a romantic falling in love western thing. First find one that fits you. Then eventually it will grow.

[Pero]

...But honestly, as far as getting going with the ngondro, I wish I would have taken time at the beginning to do a thorough retreat on nothing but the 4 mind changers (bka the 4 thoughts that turn the mind from samsara) and lojong, etc. I say this after having received and practiced teachings on everything from sutra to atiyoga.

I was really inspired by an anecdote one of our lamas was telling a group of us on a Dzogchen retreat a couple yrs ago about how he and his fellow monks at his monastery, who were on a long retreat that would culminate with Dzogchen practice, started with something like a week-long period of nothing but contemplation of the 4 mind changers, spending a day or two on each one. ...

Personally I believe the mind trainings like the 4 awarenesses and the 7 mind trainings to be more important than Ngondro, especially for myself I know from observing my condition and a little practical experience that it would be much better for me to have a much better foundation in them than to do 10 Ngondros. Heck it'd probably be better than any practice, since if you/I have this then other things will be easier.
Though I think this way, unfortunately practicaly speaking I still don't seem to appreciate them much (otherwise I'd focus more on them). I suppose most of the time I still have the idea in my head that this kind of thing isn't practice.

Oh but I don't believe it's neccessary to go into retreat to be successful with them (other than perhaps for the last one of the 7).

[Pero]

As for long retreat vs daily practice at home, you may be underestimating how much the waves of karma can really get to raging during long retreat. A friend of mine who's done two very traditional 3 yr retreats said something like after a few months of strict retreat, even the paint on the wall of his meditation room seemed to be a personal affront to him lol. Group retreat? Ridiculous tension and tempers and attitudes flaring. Solitary retreat? All kinds of flare-ups of frustration, boredom, loneliness, wild thoughts and emotions can pop up.

I'm a little confused, what point are you trying to make here?

[Luke]

...This is not a love affair. I cannot count how many people have seen such love affairs go wrong. One certainly ends up loving a lama but it is not a romantic falling in love western thing. First find one that fits you. Then eventually it will grow.

Yeah, you're right Ron. I need a lama who fits my personality and goals.

I took the refuge ceremony with my current lama (this is a convenient term for the moment), and it was a very powerful moment when he transmitted the refuge vow to me. I felt the power of his mind or perhaps it was just the power of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas that I felt. Also, this was the first Buddhist sangha I ever went to in person. Perhaps I have felt slightly attached to this lama for these reasons, but attachment isn't clear thinking. I'll meet some other lamas and try to think more clearly.

[Pema Rigdzin]

As for long retreat vs daily practice at home, you may be underestimating how much the waves of karma can really get to raging during long retreat. A friend of mine who's done two very traditional 3 yr retreats said something like after a few months of strict retreat, even the paint on the wall of his meditation room seemed to be a personal affront to him lol. Group retreat? Ridiculous tension and tempers and attitudes flaring. Solitary retreat? All kinds of flare-ups of frustration, boredom, loneliness, wild thoughts and emotions can pop up.

I'm a little confused, what point are you trying to make here?

Haha I was probably too sleepy to be posting about this kind of stuff when I posted this, but what I MEANT to be saying was that Luke shouldn't have too romantic or idealized of a view about retreat because he likened practice outside of retreat as "just bouncing on the waves of karma." I think now maybe I misunderstood what he actually intended with that statement, but at the time I was thinking that the waves of karma can really rage while one is on retreat and it can be a really difficult experience at times. That's all. I did not intend to appear to be discouraging retreat or questioning its value lol.

[Pema Rigdzin]

One never knows what obstacles may arise, what obscurations may still persist after completing the usual amount of a certain practice. For example, while still undergoing their training, many great lamas were told by their lamas to repeat ngondro more than once before being given the green light to progress to another practice, or do much more generation stage before moving on to tsa-lung, etc.

What you say is very true, but it still implies a system of being periodically evaluated by one's lama and getting meaningful feedback from him/her, which I like very much. I think my current lama forgets exactly which stages his students are at, so that's what makes me paranoid that he'll just forget about me, and that I'll just languish in the same sangha for years without having achieved very much. When I meet with him, his answer is basically, "Well, you should try and set up a retreat with some other sangha members," and I try to do it and then the times I propose don't work for anyone else, so I just end up stuck.

As for long retreat vs daily practice at home, you may be underestimating how much the waves of karma can really get to raging during long retreat.

Hehe, perhaps you're right, but I still want to try.

Finding the right situation with the right lama can be quite challenging sometimes...

I've received a Vajrasattva empowerment, so I suppose I could recite the 100-syllable mantra, regardless of whether I get permission to begin Ngondro or not. Vajrasattva...the lord of Tantric Buddhism... I could use some of that right now.... Like you say, Ngondro is an ongoing process, so I might as well get used to that mantra. I suppose I could also prostrate to images of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas as well. Even if it won't "count" for Ngondro, it will still "count" by generating positive karma.

Oh, by all means, do aspire to do as much retreat as you can in your life and do all you can to make that happen, such as aspiration prayers and sponsoring and making whatever lifestyle alterations or sacrifices that may be necessary, and so on. Vajrasattva practice is very important too, so yeah, if you've received the empowerment for that, there can never bee too much Vajrasattva practice. And it's important to find a lama and a group that one jibes with, no doubt. If you're not getting what you feel you need out of this present situation, it's perfectly fine to find another lama and group that resonate with you to be your principal lama and sangha. One can certainly respect and appreciate a lama and his sangha but focus more principally on another organization that is a better fit. Also, as you say, prostrating to the images of the Three Jewels and such can never fail to "count" in terms of purifying negative karma, receiving blessings, removing obscurations, and generating merit and wisdom. So, whenever you do eventually begin ngondro, you will be that much closer to amassing the two accumulations. But hopefully you'll be able to begin ngondro soon.

When it comes to close guidance from the lama, what's worked for me is having my root lamas who are the center of my practice in terms of being the principal source of blessings and core practice instructions and guidance, but relying on other qualified lamas closer by who can fill in the blanks in terms of learning things like ritual or clarifying how to visualize some part of a practice or understanding some aspect of a sadhana that's not clear to me, learning academic subjects, whatever (though I do also receive that stuff from time to time from my root lamas). When it comes to my actual experience of practicing and verifying if my meditation is on the mark, or asking whether this or that is the right step or change in focus for me, etc, I go to my root lama with that. I only see him at most once a year, usually once every 2 yrs, but sometimes it's 3 yrs between visits. And the private interview part of it is rarely more than 10 minutes. But that causes me to really get to the heart of what I need to talk to him about. And I have so much work to do based on his instructions to me and where I'm at with them that I don't need to see him more often than that. I'd PREFER to, just because of my devotion to him and my attachment, but I don't really need to.

Anyway, I've really just been trying to stress that it's important not to devalue whatever Dharma practice you've done and continue to do before you get a situation going that really feels right. As you obviously ultimately recognize, it is never wasted or lacking in profundity. I wish you well, my friend, and pray that all your obstacles be dispelled and all conducive circumstances come about.

[ronnewmexico]

Excellent comments all.

Luke... my personal opinion is to engage in a higher tantric practice which you clearly intend to do.... a personal lama, one has direction from, is most important.

Some buddhists especially westerners, do not hold this opinion but I think all lamas would advise that regardless of lineage. I do not think it is the issue with nyingma and kagyu, but with lamas representative of those that is the issue here. If you had mentioned differences with core teachings or understandings I would expect that as the case but it seems not. More like... where is available the teachings to fit what I want to do and how to do that?

WE can't just think circumstances present a lama to us and then we must by circumstance follow them.
WE must actively choose and then, them us. Circumstance has not much to do with it and it may be a circumstance of obstructive nature as well as beneficial nature...we simply do not know.
So we must go with our reason and rational.

Till then retreat vajrasattava prostrations and all the rest can be done. It sounds like you have a excellent practice far superior to mine. Your enthusiasm is contagious and quite refreshing.

[Pema Rigdzin]

Your enthusiasm is contagious and quite refreshing.

Yeah, I second this.

[heart]

...But honestly, as far as getting going with the ngondro, I wish I would have taken time at the beginning to do a thorough retreat on nothing but the 4 mind changers (bka the 4 thoughts that turn the mind from samsara) and lojong, etc. I say this after having received and practiced teachings on everything from sutra to atiyoga.

I was really inspired by an anecdote one of our lamas was telling a group of us on a Dzogchen retreat a couple yrs ago about how he and his fellow monks at his monastery, who were on a long retreat that would culminate with Dzogchen practice, started with something like a week-long period of nothing but contemplation of the 4 mind changers, spending a day or two on each one. ...

Personally I believe the mind trainings like the 4 awarenesses and the 7 mind trainings to be more important than Ngondro, especially for myself I know from observing my condition and a little practical experience that it would be much better for me to have a much better foundation in them than to do 10 Ngondros. Heck it'd probably be better than any practice, since if you/I have this then other things will be easier.
Though I think this way, unfortunately practicaly speaking I still don't seem to appreciate them much (otherwise I'd focus more on them). I suppose most of the time I still have the idea in my head that this kind of thing isn't practice.

Oh but I don't believe it's neccessary to go into retreat to be successful with them (other than perhaps for the last one of the 7).

Pero, I think you have to realize that the four mind turnings, which I assume is what you mean with the "four awarenesses", and the seven mind trainings from the Vima Nyingthik is just that, Ngondro. Ngondro means just preliminary practices. Every Tibetan teaching is divided in to preliminaries, main part and conclusion. Secondly, in the Longchen Nyingthik one spend a lot of time in the three-year retreat to contemplate the four mind turnings. Without renunciation it is impossible to practice Dzogchen. This is not the kind of "impossible" that you say when you just want make things difficult for others. Renunciation is actually a key point in Dzogchen practice.

/magnus