Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

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Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby Yeti » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:38 am

GR.jpg
GR.jpg (336.06 KiB) Viewed 919 times
Would appreciate it if anyone could identify which specific manifestation or terma cycle this GR thangka belongs too.
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby conebeckham » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:13 pm

Me too!

It's not iconography I recognize immediately. Appears most of the 8 manifestations are arranged below...and right below GR, and above the semicircle of manifestations, appears a yabyum yidam which may be a form of Hayagriva/Phagmo--can't tell. But that could be a key.

Also, in the lineage above, I don't see Samantabhadra/Drhi as usually depicted...and Amitayus is at the very top?

Good luck with that one....I think you'll need a real expert.

(Maybe send it to Jeff Watt for review?)
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby Yeti » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:27 pm

conebeckham wrote:Me too!

It's not iconography I recognize immediately. Appears most of the 8 manifestations are arranged below...and right below GR, and above the semicircle of manifestations, appears a yabyum yidam which may be a form of Hayagriva/Phagmo--can't tell. But that could be a key.

Also, in the lineage above, I don't see Samantabhadra/Drhi as usually depicted...and Amitayus is at the very top?

Good luck with that one....I think you'll need a real expert.

:thanks:

(Maybe send it to Jeff Watt for review?)

I don't know about him, can you please provide a link or reference.
:namaste:
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby conebeckham » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:11 pm

http://www.himalayanart.org/

Jeff Watt is the curator, and I'd say one of the go-to guys on Earth for questions like this. Other than some specialist Lamas who may be able to identify it based on their personal knowledge of a given terma tradition, he's the guy, I'd bet.
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby Yeti » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:45 am

conebeckham wrote:http://www.himalayanart.org/

Jeff Watt is the curator, and I'd say one of the go-to guys on Earth for questions like this. Other than some specialist Lamas who may be able to identify it based on their personal knowledge of a given terma tradition, he's the guy, I'd bet.

:thanks:
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby Matylda » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:34 pm

It looks pretty much like Peling tradition thanka of Guru Rinpoche...
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby michaelb » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:20 pm

My guess is it's a picture of a Guru Rinpoche sadhana rather than a refuge tree, and I would hazard it's Dudjom Tersar Collection of Seven Termas (Ter Kha Dun Dü), with the seven tertons at the top along with Yeshe Tsogyal, Trisong Detsen and Dudjom Rinpoche lower down, the five Thotrengtsal, the eight manifestations and Hayagriva and Vajravarahi. The Protectors wouldn't be out of place in a Tersar tangkha either.

just a guess, though.
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby Yeti » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:48 pm

Matylda wrote:It looks pretty much like Peling tradition thanka of Guru Rinpoche...

:thanks: Don't know that tradition
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby Yeti » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:49 pm

michaelb wrote:My guess is it's a picture of a Guru Rinpoche sadhana rather than a refuge tree, and I would hazard it's Dudjom Tersar Collection of Seven Termas (Ter Kha Dun Dü), with the seven tertons at the top along with Yeshe Tsogyal, Trisong Detsen and Dudjom Rinpoche lower down, the five Thotrengtsal, the eight manifestations and Hayagriva and Vajravarahi. The Protectors wouldn't be out of place in a Tersar tangkha either.

just a guess, though.

:thanks: That was my guess too. But it is just guessing.
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby michaelb » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:15 am

Yeti wrote: :thanks: That was my guess too. But it is just guessing.

The size of the image and detail isn't ideal for identifying the lineage, but it seems that the two most easily distinguished lamas in the picture are Dudjom Lingpa with beard etc. and Dudjom Rinpoche, with white zen. The others are more generic, so Guru Chowang, for example, doesn't appear as he is often shown (big top knot and that) but that doesn't mean he's not depicted.

I'm sure there are probably other sadhanas with eight manifestations, five Thotrengtsals and Hayagriva/Vajravarahi, but with such a Dudjom emphasis? I don't think so. So, my money's on Ter Kha Dun Dü, for sure.
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby Yeti » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:27 am

michaelb wrote:
Yeti wrote: :thanks: That was my guess too. But it is just guessing.

The size of the image and detail isn't ideal for identifying the lineage, but it seems that the two most easily distinguished lamas in the picture are Dudjom Lingpa with beard etc. and Dudjom Rinpoche, with white zen. The others are more generic, so Guru Chowang, for example, doesn't appear as he is often shown (big top knot and that) but that doesn't mean he's not depicted.

I'm sure there are probably other sadhanas with eight manifestations, five Thotrengtsals and Hayagriva/Vajravarahi, but with such a Dudjom emphasis? I don't think so. So, my money's on Ter Kha Dun Dü, for sure.

I've put it on Himalayan Arts FB page hoping Jeff Watt might say something, as Cone suggested.

FYI, I picked it up in a shop that sold photos in Boudhnath in 1988. I just liked it a lot. It's the only image on my shrine I can't identify. If it is what you think it is, then that's a real blessing. Expecting one Nyingma khenpo to visit AU in a few months, so if I haven't identified it by then I will ask him. I've never shown it to any of my teachers to identify, it's just now I feel motivated to find out what it is.
:thanks:
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby conebeckham » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:22 am

Very cool info, folks. Thanks! Always an education here at Dharma Wheel....
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby yegyal » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:37 am

I don't think the teacher with the beard is Dudjom Lingpa. For one he is too dark, a depiction usually reserved for Indian teachers. Plus he's too close to the top. If that is Dudjom Rinpoche at the bottom, then Dudjom Lingpa would probably be closer to him rather than next to Trisong Deutsen. My guess is the bearded figure could be Acarya/Atsarya Sale, who was often refered to as being "black," but that's just another guess. However, if that is Dudjom Rinpoche in the zenkar it should be easy to figure out what this is by looking through Guru practices in his sungbum. But again, I'm not entirely convinced that it is. Anyway, I hope you figure it out and let us know when you do.
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby kirtu » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:41 am

Yeti - I've seen this before with something dealing with Palyul teaching - there is something I had that has this.

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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby Matylda » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:57 am

Yeti wrote:
Matylda wrote:It looks pretty much like Peling tradition thanka of Guru Rinpoche...

:thanks: Don't know that tradition


Pema Lingpa, it is southern terma.. not so well known I guess...
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby Yeti » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:15 am

:thanks: Can anyone identify the head of the lineage? Or is that what you are trying to do? :shrug:
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby yegyal » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:21 am

Actually, after taking a look at Tbrc I think michaelb may be right, and if so it could be this http://xmeru.org/eBooks/W20869-0338-7-46-any.pdf
If not, it's probably one of the other guru practices included in Dudjom's collected works. In other words, it's probably not a revelation of Dudjom's, but one that he held the lineage for and therefore included in his sungbum. It could be Dudul Dorje's gongpa yongdu, which would make the bearded figure Dudul Dorje and not Dudjom Lingpa. Anyway, I think that's the best I can come up with.
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Re: Pls Help Identify a GR Thangka

Postby michaelb » Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:07 am

I may be wrong about the identities of the lamas in the picture, but it fits to have Dudjom Rinpoche in there. For anyone that doesn't know, the Collected Seven Treasures was a Sadhana Dudjom Rinpoche compiled from the termas of Guru Chowang, Dorje Lingpa, Ratna Lingpa, Padma Lingpa, Shigpo Lingpa, Dudul Lingpa and Dudjom Rinpoche himself at Yeshe Tsogyal's request, so the lamas aren't depicted in lineage order, as such. Also, there are eight and I guessed Dudjom Lingpa was added due to his importance to the Tersar tradition, but the one with the beard could be someone else.

As far as Trikaya lamas goes, Amitayus, Vajrasattva and Tsokyi Tuktik (if that's who he is) makes the Tersar case stronger.

The more I look, the more convinced I am.
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