Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yeti » Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:57 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:
Yeti wrote:I would appreciate it if someone could please clearly explain the difference between the classification of outer, inner, secret and most secret, as related in terma cycles, and how that is a different classification to the one of outer and inner tantras.


This maybe a good place to start:

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... _of_tantra

:namaste:

Thanks, but I have a good enough knowledge of the classes of 6 yanas of tantra and the view, meditation and action associated with them. I'm just looking to clarify why the outer, inner, secret and most secret, as related in terma cycles, as Yudron pointed out, are not related or associated with these, and therefore what these classifications actually relate too. That is what I am trying to understand.

But thanks anyway for trying to address my question.
"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby T. Chokyi » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:52 am

Yeti wrote:
T. Chokyi wrote:
Yeti wrote:I would appreciate it if someone could please clearly explain the difference between the classification of outer, inner, secret and most secret, as related in terma cycles, and how that is a different classification to the one of outer and inner tantras.


This maybe a good place to start:

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... _of_tantra

:namaste:


Thanks, but I have a good enough knowledge of the classes of 6 yanas of tantra and the view, meditation and action associated with them. I'm just looking to clarify why the outer, inner, secret and most secret, as related in terma cycles, as Yudron pointed out, are not related or associated with these, and therefore what these classifications actually relate too. That is what I am trying to understand.

But thanks anyway for trying to address my question.


You're welcome, to add, I understood it to mean that certain Ter which are in classifications such as Anuyoga, do not involve certain renunciations or austerities, and that these days in many practitioners experience, they are given Anuyoga practices sometimes even when they are still finishing Ngondro (for example) thus they aren't heavily involved in the path of renunciation, or the austerities related with the lower tantras. Many teachers, many Dharma Centers are giving the empowerments from Anuyoga tantra classification these days, but the lower tantras should be understood as well, what they are for, how they "work", and also how they "overlap"...

For example, in the path of self liberation there isn't this notion of not eating onions, garlic, or wearing a certain robe, etc... but you'll find this in sutrayana/mahayana, the higher practices actually move a little bit more away from the "restraints" expected when it associates with lower vehicles...this is about as much as I can say about it... but I'm sure others will give from their experience as well.

Below I've included some academic things, I like... maybe you will too.

1)the three outer yanas leading from the origin,
i.e. the three yanas related to the outer vehicle of leading from the origin [of suffering] and the three pitakas of characteristics

2)the three yanas of vedic asceticism,
i.e. the three yanas related to the inner vehicle of Vedic asceticism and the three outer classes of tantra

3)the three yanas of powerful transformative methods,
i.e. the three yanas related to the secret vehicle of powerful transformative methods and the three inner classes of tantra

The Above was taken from this Chart:
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Nine_Yanas

See the third line down in the chart, where it says outer, inner, and secret

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Outer correspond to the path of renunciation (many rules, regulations)
associated with Sutrayana and corresponds to the path of renunciation .
the shravaka vehicle,
pratyekabuddha vehicle and
bodhisattva vehicle.

These are the three outer yanas leading from the origin, i.e. the three yanas related to the outer vehicle
of leading from the origin [of suffering] and the three pitakas of characteristics

Why are these three called ‘vehicles leading from the origin’? It is because they lead us along the path to the result of liberation from samsara by abandoning all the actions (karma) and destructive emotions (kleshas) which are the cause or ‘origin’ [of suffering]. Thats the application, how they "relate".

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

The three yanas of vedic asceticism, i.e. the three yanas related to the inner vehicle of Vedic asceticism and the three outer classes of tantra. The three outer or lower classes of tantra (Wyl. rgyud sde 'og ma sum, phyi'i rgyud) are classes of tantra which are common to both the Nyingma and Sarma schools of Tibetan Buddhism. They are also called the three tantras of vedic asceticism. They are:
the kriya tantra,
the charya tantra and
the yoga tantra.

You might wonder why are these called ‘vehicles of Vedic ascetism.’ It is because the three outer classes of tantra stress aspects of ascetic conduct, such as ritual purification and cleanliness, and in this respect they are similar to the Vedic tradition of the brahmins.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Inner are considered part of Vajrayana.
The three yanas of powerful transformative methods,
i.e. the three yanas related to the secret vehicle of powerful transformative methods and the three inner classes of tantra.
the yana of mahayoga,
the yana of anuyoga and
the yana of atiyoga.

You might wonder why these are called ‘vehicles of powerful transformative methods.’ It is because they include powerful methods for transforming all phenomena into great purity and equalness.

reference for Purity and Equality:
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... d_equality

Dudjom Rinpoche explains that:
All three inner tantras are mutually pervasive, incorporating aspects of one another. A certain practice is classified as Maha-, Anu- or Atiyoga in reference to what is emphasized or is foremost in it. The prominent feature of a Mahayoga practice is the development stage, that of Anuyoga is the completion stage, while that of Atiyoga is the cultivation of the realization of the void sphere of all things. Each of these practices, however, has development (Maha), completion (Anu) and Dzogchen (Ati) stages.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

So the outer has to do with renunciation http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Three_pitakas
Basic Vehicle (Skt. Hīnayāna; Tib. ཐེག་དམན་, Wyl. theg dman) — literally the 'Lesser Vehicle', but perhaps more accurately understood as 'Vehicle of Lesser Result'. What principally distinguishes followers of the Hinayana from those of the Great Vehicle (Skt. Mahayana; Wyl. theg chen) is their motivation. They aspire for the personal liberation of nirvana, and lack the courage to pursue the greater fruition of the Mahayana—this being the enlightenment of all sentient beings.
It comprises both the Shravakayana (Skt.) or vehicle of shravakas and the Pratyekabuddhayana (Skt.) or vehicle of pratyekabuddhas. (this note is from here: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Basic_vehicle)

The inner has to do with a basic ascetism, It is because the three outer classes of tantra stress aspects of ascetic conduct, such as ritual purification and cleanliness, and in this respect they are similar to the Vedic tradition of the brahmins.
An alternative translation sometimes given is ‘the inner vehicle of gaining awareness through austerities’.

The secret method has to do with pure view and equality: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... d_equality

Just a note of my own, lastly the path of self liberation the 9th Yana, is also what Norbu Rinpoche refers to as Dzogchen (The path of Self Liberation) it's known that way among Nyingmapas as well.

Kamma:
TBRC:

http://blog.tbrc.org/the-nyingma-kama-collections/

Additional Information:
TBRC:

bka' ma shin tu rgyas pa (kaH thog)

Catalog Information
An edition of the Kama recently compiled at Katok Monastery by students of Khenpo Munsel and Khenpo Jamyang. At twice the size of the Dudjom edition, it contains many rare Nyingma treatises on Mahayoga, Anuyoga, and Atiyoga that heretofore had never been seen outside of Tibet.

:popcorn:
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yeti » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:20 am

I have observed that a number of my teachers, although practising the inner tantras, observe many of the outer tantra disciplines, such as avoiding black food and the likes. I have even heard some of them say that many of the outer tantra vows should be observed as part of the inner tantra samayas as well.
"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby T. Chokyi » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:42 am

Yeti wrote:I have observed that a number of my teachers, although practising the inner tantras, observe many of the outer tantra disciplines, such as avoiding black food and the likes. I have even heard some of them say that many of the outer tantra vows should be observed as part of the inner tantra samayas as well.



Yes, same here, & as you know, the keeping of getting together
(Tsog on the High Days) and doing the practices at those
times together restores samaya, this is why, to my mind, Norbu
Rinpoche & many other teachers, encourage their students to
keep those 4 during every month.

As you say, many of the outer tantra practices (vows) are
observed as part of inner tantra (vows) as well.

Most of us can't keep all our vows well, so the restoration
of these samayas on the high days together, especially with
our own teacher as the Vajra master is very important.

:thumbsup:

P.S.
I remember seeing some blogs that had Kama transmission info not long ago:
http://shambhalatimes.org/2011/11/11/wi ... nsmission/

excerpts

From Article:
Interview with Jigme Rinpoche: Part One

"Kama and terma are the two major transmissions as far as the old school, the Nyingma school, is concerned. Every part of the tantric lineage is rooted in the kama first. Terma is drawn from the kama teachings. The termas are extracted [from the kama, and then] rewritten, recomposed and done in a manner that is fitting for a particular time, particular situations. So, the source of the terma teachings is basically the kama."

"Terma is made in Tibet. Terma is a true local product of Tibet. Kama comes all the way from India and goes all the way back to the dharmakaya."

http://207.58.143.117/~rinchent/?p=151


From Article:
Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche to receive the Nyingma Kama Empowerments

"The teachings in the Nyingma Kama cover all levels of practice, but primarily present the highest tantric traditions of maha, anu, and ati yogas, which are the specialties of the Nyingma lineage. Authors in the Nyingma Kama include such great masters as Garab Dorje, Padmasambhava, Vimalamitra, Vairocana, Rongzompa, Longchenpa, and Jigme Lingpa."

http://shambhalatimes.org/2011/10/27/sakyong-to-receive-nyingma-kama-empowerments/
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby futerko » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:10 am

"All three inner tantras are mutually pervasive, incorporating aspects of one another. A certain practice is classified as Maha-, Anu- or Atiyoga in reference to what is emphasized or is foremost in it. The prominent feature of a Mahayoga practice is the development stage, that of Anuyoga is the completion stage, while that of Atiyoga is the cultivation of the realization of the void sphere of all things. Each of these practices, however, has development (Maha), completion (Anu) and Dzogchen (Ati) stages."
(An Introduction to Dzogchen: The Four-Themed Precious Garland, p. 34.)
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:04 am

Yeti wrote:
T. Chokyi wrote:
Yeti wrote:I would appreciate it if someone could please clearly explain the difference between the classification of outer, inner, secret and most secret, as related in terma cycles, and how that is a different classification to the one of outer and inner tantras.


This maybe a good place to start:

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... _of_tantra

:namaste:

I'm just looking to clarify why the outer, inner, secret and most secret, as related in terma cycles, as Yudron pointed out, are not related or associated with these, and therefore what these classifications actually relate too. That is what I am trying to understand.


I don't know for sure, but I think it has something to do with the level of profundity of the sadhanas (while still being in the same category of tantra), and perhaps with how elaborate or unelaborate they are as well. In terms of the latter, more elaborate sadhanas tend to feature yidams with multiple heads/faces, arms, and legs, plus the yum. Less elaborate tend to have less faces & limbs and still the yum. Then in the least elaborate sadhanas the yidam will have one face, two arms, two legs, and may be in union with the yum or the union is often symbolized by an implement (i.e. khatvanga or some such) that the deity is holding.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yeti » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:36 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:I don't know for sure, but I think it has something to do with the level of profundity of the sadhanas (while still being in the same category of tantra), and perhaps with how elaborate or unelaborate they are as well. In terms of the latter, more elaborate sadhanas tend to feature yidams with multiple heads/faces, arms, and legs, plus the yum. Less elaborate tend to have less faces & limbs and still the yum. Then in the least elaborate sadhanas the yidam will have one face, two arms, two legs, and may be in union with the yum or the union is often symbolized by an implement (i.e. khatvanga or some such) that the deity is holding.

I know some transmissions that are like this, where the yidams differ in the short and elaborate sadhanas, but I don't think it changes the basis or view of that practice.

Actually, IMHO the Green Tara of Chogyur Lingpa is not like a short unelaborate practice at all, it seems to be a very elaborate kriya tantra practice IMHO.

Anyway, thanks for the information, but probably it is a question I will have to ask my teachers to clarify as to what exactly depicts the outer of terma cycles.
"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yudron » Wed Jan 02, 2013 7:33 pm

Yeti wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:I don't know for sure, but I think it has something to do with the level of profundity of the sadhanas (while still being in the same category of tantra), and perhaps with how elaborate or unelaborate they are as well. In terms of the latter, more elaborate sadhanas tend to feature yidams with multiple heads/faces, arms, and legs, plus the yum. Less elaborate tend to have less faces & limbs and still the yum. Then in the least elaborate sadhanas the yidam will have one face, two arms, two legs, and may be in union with the yum or the union is often symbolized by an implement (i.e. khatvanga or some such) that the deity is holding.

I know some transmissions that are like this, where the yidams differ in the short and elaborate sadhanas, but I don't think it changes the basis or view of that practice.

Actually, IMHO the Green Tara of Chogyur Lingpa is not like a short unelaborate practice at all, it seems to be a very elaborate kriya tantra practice IMHO.

Anyway, thanks for the information, but probably it is a question I will have to ask my teachers to clarify as to what exactly depicts the outer of terma cycles.


If you figure it out, let me know. In the initial examples you gave--yes, in the Tsokye Thukthig cycle one could say the cycle grows more esoteric and elaborate as we go from Orgyen Menlha to Khandro Norlha to Tsokye Thukthig to Dorje Drollo, but in the Khandro Thukthig cycle, as it exists today, the main practice is the outer; Yeshe Tsogyal, and that sadhana is the basis for the large complete cycle containing a lot of Maha, Anu and Ati. It has been said that Dudjom Rinpoche was planning to expand on Kurukhulle (the inner), Sengdongma (the secret), and Throma (the innermost secret), but was not able to before the end of his life. These are very short sadhanas only at this point, Throma especially, and if one wants to one can plug them into the Khandro Thukthig sadhana to fill them out. Short, but very powerful.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby T. Chokyi » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:08 pm

Yeti wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:I don't know for sure, but I think it has something to do with the level of profundity of the sadhanas (while still being in the same category of tantra), and perhaps with how elaborate or unelaborate they are as well. In terms of the latter, more elaborate sadhanas tend to feature yidams with multiple heads/faces, arms, and legs, plus the yum. Less elaborate tend to have less faces & limbs and still the yum. Then in the least elaborate sadhanas the yidam will have one face, two arms, two legs, and may be in union with the yum or the union is often symbolized by an implement (i.e. khatvanga or some such) that the deity is holding.

I know some transmissions that are like this, where the yidams differ in the short and elaborate sadhanas, but I don't think it changes the basis or view of that practice.

Actually, IMHO the Green Tara of Chogyur Lingpa is not like a short unelaborate practice at all, it seems to be a very elaborate kriya tantra practice IMHO.

Anyway, thanks for the information, but probably it is a question I will have to ask my teachers to clarify as to what exactly depicts the outer of terma cycles.


Yes, it is best to ask ones teachers.

I do have one more link for you, this one inparticular may help answer your question,
when you click this link below, then click on the very first link down on the page where Gyatrul Rinpoche's
book: "The Generation Stage In Buddhist Tantra" explains
the innner and outer tantras:


http://www.google.com/search?q=outer+tantras&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1

Especially read the end of page 17 and into page 18

You may want to click on each link on that page and study around a bit as well.

Best to you!

I think I understood your question better.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yudron » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:33 pm

T. Chokyi: no, you're not getting the current question. The poster knows what the 9 yanas are. The nine yanas, IMHO, have nothing to do with the new topic being addressed. That question is: What does it signify that tertons often have four sadhanas in a cycle. For example... Jigme Lingpa, Chogyur Lingpa, and Dudjom Rinpoche Jigdrel Yeshe Dorje all have Dakini cycles with different sadhanas designated as, respectively, outer, inner, secret, and innermost secret. What does this schema signify? What is its import?

I have never heard a lama address this. But it kinda looks like the sequence generally gets more profound and esoteric, as they move from outer to innermost secret, not necessarily more elaborate or less elaborate.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby T. Chokyi » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:49 pm

Yudron wrote:T. Chokyi: no, you're not getting the current question. The poster knows what the 9 yanas are. The nine yanas, IMHO, have nothing to do with the new topic being addressed. That question is: What does it signify that tertons often have four sadhanas in a cycle. For example... Jigme Lingpa, Chogyur Lingpa, and Dudjom Rinpoche Jigdrel Yeshe Dorje all have Dakini cycles with different sadhanas designated as, respectively, outer, inner, secret, and innermost secret. What does this schema signify? What is its import?

I have never heard a lama address this. But it kinda looks like the sequence generally gets more profound and esoteric, as they move from outer to innermost secret, not necessarily more elaborate or less elaborate.


This is the question: I would appreciate it if someone could please clearly explain the difference between the classification of outer, inner, secret and most secret, as related in terma cycles, and how that is a different classification to the one of outer and inner tantras.

I think Gyatrul Rinpoche discusses this well in the book I gave the link to above.
Secondly, the Dzogchen book right below it also has many points that address
what she/he was asking.

:smile:
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yudron » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:42 pm

I know its confusing, but the Gyatrul Rinpoche passage you cited only addresses the difference between the inner tantras (maha anu ati) and the outer tantras (kriya, etc). He does not address the four part classification of sadhanas by Tertons, which--unfortunatly--use the words outer and inner as two of their categories. These two classifications systems do not correspond, e.g. the Yeshe Tsogal "outer" sadhana does not belong to the outer tantras. I have discussed this with Pema Dorje Rinpoche--a disciple of HH Dudjom Rinpoche--all these Dudjom sadhanas we are discussing belong to the inner tantras (even if they have a frontal visualization.) There is no relationship between these two systems of nomenclature.


T. Chokyi wrote:
Yudron wrote:T. Chokyi: no, you're not getting the current question. The poster knows what the 9 yanas are. The nine yanas, IMHO, have nothing to do with the new topic being addressed. That question is: What does it signify that tertons often have four sadhanas in a cycle. For example... Jigme Lingpa, Chogyur Lingpa, and Dudjom Rinpoche Jigdrel Yeshe Dorje all have Dakini cycles with different sadhanas designated as, respectively, outer, inner, secret, and innermost secret. What does this schema signify? What is its import?

I have never heard a lama address this. But it kinda looks like the sequence generally gets more profound and esoteric, as they move from outer to innermost secret, not necessarily more elaborate or less elaborate.


This is the question: I would appreciate it if someone could please clearly explain the difference between the classification of outer, inner, secret and most secret, as related in terma cycles, and how that is a different classification to the one of outer and inner tantras.

I think Gyatrul Rinpoche discusses this well in the book I gave the link to above.
Secondly, the Dzogchen book right below it also has many points that address
what she/he was asking.

:smile:
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yeti » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:40 pm

Yudron wrote:If you figure it out, let me know. In the initial examples you gave--yes, in the Tsokye Thukthig cycle one could say the cycle grows more esoteric and elaborate as we go from Orgyen Menlha to Khandro Norlha to Tsokye Thukthig to Dorje Drollo, but in the Khandro Thukthig cycle, as it exists today, the main practice is the outer; Yeshe Tsogyal, and that sadhana is the basis for the large complete cycle containing a lot of Maha, Anu and Ati. It has been said that Dudjom Rinpoche was planning to expand on Kurukhulle (the inner), Sengdongma (the secret), and Throma (the innermost secret), but was not able to before the end of his life. These are very short sadhanas only at this point, Throma especially, and if one wants to one can plug them into the Khandro Thukthig sadhana to fill them out. Short, but very powerful.


Yes, sometimes I just pray that in the future I can understand the profundity of these practices and cycles. I believe there were a number of Dudjom Rinpoche's heart disciples who mastered such entire cycles. And that there are extensive tsa lung practices within the Khandro Thugtik. And a lot of cycles are extensive in certain areas.

EMAHO.
"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby T. Chokyi » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:01 pm

Yudron wrote:I know its confusing, but the Gyatrul Rinpoche passage you cited only addresses the difference between the inner tantras (maha anu ati) and the outer tantras (kriya, etc). He does not address the four part classification of sadhanas by Tertons, which--unfortunatly--use the words outer and inner as two of their categories. These two classifications systems do not correspond, e.g. the Yeshe Tsogal "outer" sadhana does not belong to the outer tantras. I have discussed this with Pema Dorje Rinpoche--a disciple of HH Dudjom Rinpoche--all these Dudjom sadhanas we are discussing belong to the inner tantras (even if they have a frontal visualization.) There is no relationship between these two systems of nomenclature.


Thats very interesting indeed, good point, perhaps this question isn't a catch all kind of thing. There are some tantras that would classify according to whether or not there is a solitary yidam verses yab/yum as it says in Tulku Thondups book... but ....there are some Ati practices combined with channels, winds etc...that have one as solitary yidam in Dudjom lineage...certainly those aren't Kriya. Comment?

Generally I do think the second book is also good reading, as it does address some of these things mentioned, and I don't know if I have that whole book in my library but it starts to go into some interesting classifications, perhaps you'd like to comment on these points from a Dudjom perspective:

The Quote from second book is from Longchen Rabjam and Mipam
in the book "The Practices of Dzogchen" by Tulku Thondup
(the second book down):

Quote:

"Concerning view, the outer tantras view the two truths alternately or separately. In most of the outer tantras
one meditates the appearances, the relative truth, as deities and at the end, when one dissolves the appearances of the
deities, one contemplates on the absolute truth, free from conceptualizations and elaborations. Whereas in inner tantras, one views the two truths as union and meditates on them simultaneously. In inner tantras, the basis is the sphere of realization of total purity without discrimination, knowing all phenomenal existents as the three mandalas,
the mandala of body, speech, and mind of the Buddhas, from Primordial time."

Also in the book it mentions that for the four outer tantras there is a different basis:

"For outer tantras this is not the basis, regarding the two stages in inner tantras one meditates on the development and perfection stages in union, as one sees all as total purity without discrimination: but in outer tantras one meditates on them seperatley."

Also mentions what the "outer" is based on in verses "inner", this is just to point the way, this is basically for study, and nothing wrong with study. Perhaps Dudjom Rinpoche classified somewhat differently, certainly this would apply to The Yeshe Tsogyal Sadhana being "inner" as you have mentioned:

"Outer tantras the vase empowerment is the main one and in inner tantras "secret empowerment" "wisdom empowerment", and "vebal empowerment" are the main ones. In practice in outer tantras one enjoys purity and cleanness of food,
clothing, dwelling, and so on, but in innter tantras one enjoys all with equalness."

I wonder about this point:

"For visualizations in inner tantra the deities are in union with consorts and outer tantras they are not...."

page 21 which can be read on the reader ... any comment?

:)
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby T. Chokyi » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:13 pm

Yes, sometimes I just pray that in the future I can understand the profundity of these practices and cycles. I believe there were a number of Dudjom Rinpoche's heart disciples who mastered such entire cycles. And that there are extensive tsa lung practices within the Khandro Thugtik. And a lot of cycles are extensive in certain areas.


EMAHO.[/quote]

Your sincerity comes across in your posts, I pray that you will meet with the practices of Tsa Lung as well.
There are centers in the West with qualified teachers where you can gradually get into this. It's not really
announced publically though as far as I know at some centers, sometimes you would just have to kind of be there,
and be with a group that is lead step by step until Tsalung practice is offered by the teacher.

Take good care!
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yudron » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:48 pm

As far as I know, there are no Kriya, Charya or Yogatantra practices in the Dudjom Tersar. There are probably some in the Dudjom RInpoche's sung bum (collected works) because he restored and commented a lot of non-tersar texts during his life. I've never heard of any in the Longchen Nyingthig either, and I have some exposure and practice history in that tradition... but I could be wrong.

I'm sure that some tertons have discovered practices, such as Manjushri, Tara and Chenrezi are practiced according to the outer tantras, with the practitioners eating vegetarian, etc, and so on, like the sarma schools. Sounds like the big Tara of Chokling is that way, but I'm not familiar with it.

Most of our sadhanas read like a Longchenpa text on Dzogchen... replete with all terminology of the view. We tend to progress through the order of practices linearly starting with ngondro, but once one receives pointing out instructions (which can come at any time), all practices are done while resting in the view. How to do that is, of course, the big question... and that unfolds over one's lifetime of practice.

The arising of the deity is sudden in our main sadhanas, even when there is a long pre-amble as in Namchak

Putri.





T. Chokyi wrote:
Yudron wrote:I know its confusing, but the Gyatrul Rinpoche passage you cited only addresses the difference between the inner tantras (maha anu ati) and the outer tantras (kriya, etc). He does not address the four part classification of sadhanas by Tertons, which--unfortunatly--use the words outer and inner as two of their categories. These two classifications systems do not correspond, e.g. the Yeshe Tsogal "outer" sadhana does not belong to the outer tantras. I have discussed this with Pema Dorje Rinpoche--a disciple of HH Dudjom Rinpoche--all these Dudjom sadhanas we are discussing belong to the inner tantras (even if they have a frontal visualization.) There is no relationship between these two systems of nomenclature.


Thats very interesting indeed, good point, perhaps this question isn't a catch all kind of thing. There are some tantras that would classify according to whether or not there is a solitary yidam verses yab/yum as it says in Tulku Thodups book... but ....there are some Ati practices combined with channels, winds etc...that have one as solitary yidam in Dudjom lineage...certainly those aren't Kriya. Comment?

Generally I do think the second book is also good reading, as it does address some of these things mentioned, and I don't know if I have that whole book in my library but it starts to go into some interesting classifications, perhaps you'd like to comment on these points from a Dudjom perspective:

The Quote from second book is from Longchen Rabjam and Mipam
in the book "The Practices of Dzogchen" by Tulku Thondup
(the second book down):

Quote:

"Concerning view, the outer tantras view the two truths alternately or separately. In most of the outer tantras
one meditates the appearances, the relative truth, as deities and at the end, when one dissolves the appearances of the
deities, one contemplates on the absolute truth, free from conceptualizations and elaborations. Whereas in inner tantras, one views the two truths as union and meditates on them simultaneously. In inner tantras, the basis is the sphere of realization of total purity without discrimination, knowing all phenomenal existents as the three mandalas,
the mandala of body, speech, and mind of the Buddhas, from Primordial time."

Also in the book it mentions that for the four outer tantras there is a different basis:

"For outer tantras this is not the basis, regarding the two stages in inner tantras one meditates on the development and perfection stages in union, as one sees all as total purity without discrimination: but in outer tantras one meditates on them seperatley."

Also mentions what the "outer" is based on in verses "inner", this is just to point the way, this is basically for study, and nothing wrong with study. Perhaps Dudjom Rinpoche classified somewhat differently, certainly this would apply to The Yeshe Tsogyal Sadhana being "inner" as you have mentioned:

"Outer tantras the vase empowerment is the main one and in inner tantras "secret empowerment" "wisdom empowerment", and "vebal empowerment" are the main ones. In practice in outer tantras one enjoys purity and cleanness of food,
clothing, dwelling, and so on, but in innter tantras one enjoys all with equalness."

I wonder about this point:

"For visualizations in inner tantra the deities are in union with consorts and outer tantras they are not...."

page 21 which can be read on the reader ... any comment?

:)
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:53 am

T. Chokyi wrote:Perhaps Dudjom Rinpoche classified somewhat differently, certainly this would apply to The Yeshe Tsogyal Sadhana being "inner" as you have mentioned:...


Nah, the schema of mahayoga and anuyoga cycles having outer, inner, secret, and innermost secret sadhanas is an across the board Nyingma thing. I have no idea if it's present in any Sarma traditions, though.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Yudron » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:57 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
T. Chokyi wrote:Perhaps Dudjom Rinpoche classified somewhat differently, certainly this would apply to The Yeshe Tsogyal Sadhana being "inner" as you have mentioned:...


Nah, the schema of mahayoga and anuyoga cycles having outer, inner, secret, and innermost secret sadhanas is an across the board Nyingma thing. I have no idea if it's present in any Sarma traditions, though.



1. I hope I said the Yeshe Tsogyal sadhana was outer, cuz it is.

2. I'm not familiar with anuyoga sadhana cycles. What do you have in mind?
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:08 am

Yudron wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
T. Chokyi wrote:Perhaps Dudjom Rinpoche classified somewhat differently, certainly this would apply to The Yeshe Tsogyal Sadhana being "inner" as you have mentioned:...


Nah, the schema of mahayoga and anuyoga cycles having outer, inner, secret, and innermost secret sadhanas is an across the board Nyingma thing. I have no idea if it's present in any Sarma traditions, though.



1. I hope I said the Yeshe Tsogyal sadhana was outer, cuz it is.

2. I'm not familiar with anuyoga sadhana cycles. What do you have in mind?


Oops, I think I included too little of T Chokyi's statement to make it clear what idea of his/hers, or perceived idea, I was speaking to. It seemed like T Chokyi was under the impression that the outer, inner, secret, and innermost secret schema for sadhanas was something particular to Dudjom Rinpoche. So I meant to be clarifying that this schema occurs throughout Nyingma.

As for anuyoga cycles, having mentioned mahayoga, I was just including anuyoga for good measure since this outer, inner, etc schema is also used with that yana. To be honest, I am much more familiar with particular sadhanas that are classified as anuyoga than I am with cycles and so on. While I find all these classifications somewhat interesting, I'm mostly only concerned with just doing my own day to day practice, so I haven't gone out of my way much to learn a whole lot about this stuff and am just passing along my impressions, for the most part, based on what I've come across.
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Re: Possible Nyingma Kama Wangs

Postby conebeckham » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:15 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
T. Chokyi wrote:Perhaps Dudjom Rinpoche classified somewhat differently, certainly this would apply to The Yeshe Tsogyal Sadhana being "inner" as you have mentioned:...


Nah, the schema of mahayoga and anuyoga cycles having outer, inner, secret, and innermost secret sadhanas is an across the board Nyingma thing. I have no idea if it's present in any Sarma traditions, though.


I can only speak for Karma Kagyu, but the yidam systems have different liturgies, techniques of recitation, etc., though the yidams don't change drastically as in terma cycles...so, for example, chidrup/nangdrup/sangdrup of phagmo/yogini or demchok don't switch to other deities, really.
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