Yogacara and dzogchen

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:44 am

asunthatneversets wrote:There is no content of consciousness. Consciousness isn't a container. There is nothing beyond the
appearances.


Contents here refer to the phenomena (dharma) in that stream of consciousness.

What is it that you consider the absolute to be? And how are you defining 'emptiness'? Where are
you finding permanence and true existence?


The side of the body is the absolute.
'Emptiness' is another term for the absolute (body).
On the side of the body, one finds permanence and true existence.

The sense faculties are imputed notions of ignorance. As are both internal and external.


No, the sense faculties are neutral of any imputed notions of ignorance, the same for the all (internal
and external.

Consciousness doesn't perceive any objects of form, being that objects of form are also products of
imputation and ignorance.


Consciousness is that which perceived in two divisions (subject and object), these two divisions
(including the various forms) of perception are the inherent aspect of consciousness which are not
cause by imputation and ignorance. Therefore, in the absence of imputation and ignorance, the two
divisions remained as the two-fold manifestation of consciousness.

However you are correct in stating that a subject must be present in order for objects to be seemingly
perceived. Dzogchen's dividing line isn't clear because there's no such thing as a dividing line outside
of imputed ignorance, and being that no dividing line is truly established within imputed ignorance,
there is no dividing line. Truly, in dzogchen there isn't even 'no dividing line', because such a
conclusion would require the initial presence of a dividing line to negate in the first place.


The dzogchen system does not build outside consciousness, therefore it is subject to the same principle
of consciousness, i.e. subject to its two-fold divisions, even though it is not clearly stated, the
distinction exist.

You may need to study Mipham's The Lion’s Roar Proclaiming Extrinsic Emptiness:

"the ultimate has both a nondeluded subject and a nondelusory object, because what exists there
cannot be invalidated (gnod pa) by a valid cognition that proves otherwise, because it is what is
proven after the reasoning establishing emptiness has already been applied, and because in
establishing it according to conventional validating cognition, no one in this world, including the
gods, can dispute it in accordance with the Dharma. "

How can a notion be neutral? A notion needs to be "about" something. One can only have a notion
in relation to a person, place, thing, idea etc.


Notion itself is neutral, but when it is derived from the basis of delusion or intellect, then it is of
delusion or intellect.

and I suppose one could argue that conceptualization is itself a mere appearance if it's left in it's
suchness


Thought or conceptualization is not the dependent arisen nature, if a mental image is maintained by
thought, it is of the imaginary nature, hence does not inherently exist. Though thusness exists in both
natures.

Define 'means', I'm not sure what you're referring to with the term 'means'?


In the definitive dharma and yogacara of the chinese buddhism, the means refer to the function of the body. It is not skillful means, provisional meaning, gradual means and so on, rather it is the capacity that is inherent, in the same way as the two-fold manifestation of consciousness is inherent.

I take it by 'essence' you mean svabhāva? I define thusness/suchness the same as mere appearance.


Essence here refered to the body (thusness), mere appearance (dependent arisen nature) is the means of the body, not the body itself.

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Andrew108 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:31 am

From my own side I think Yogachara is very much brain-centred. I don't think Dzogchen is. What I mean is that in Yogachara there is a holding onto moments of consciousness. Personally I think these moments are explained by looking at the way the brain works. If I held a Yogacharan position then recent scientific developments would somewhat undermine that position.

In Dzogchen, consciousness is not taken as being foundational and there is the notion of purity in that nothing can be found or established as foundational. Dzogchen's view is more pervasive. Our experience is all part of this pure, perfect, and present expression, its not linked to moments of consciousness. Dzogchen is not brain-based and this is very important.

I feel that a lot if the issues are quite simple. We don't need to use complicated language. In yogachara there seems some permanent source that in a way acts as a cause. We uncover it or get to know it and we get a realization as a result. In dzogchen pure and perfect means that there is no underlying mechanism that produces what we experience. And realization is not a result. Dharmata is not producing results and neither is it acting as a cause.

There are those who think they are understanding Dzogchen when in fact they are holding a Yogacharan view. And there are those who think that by knowing Yogachara they will know Dzogchen. I understand the connection between Yogachara and Dzogchen and importantly I know the differences. In simple terms Yogachara is like being stuck inside a box. Dzogchen on the other hand is completely open and inclusive. That's what inspires me. Also Yogacharans and Dzogchenpas need a bit of Madyamaka in order to not get stuck. But this is my opinion based on the notion that Dzogchen Semde is the best place to start.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:22 am

viniketa wrote:It is difficult, but I even try to respect those Dzogchenpa who claim all other Buddhists are practicing for naught.

:namaste:


No actual Dzogchen practitioners (i.e. people who have concrete knowledge of their true nature) hold such a ridiculous view. Maybe people who have recently discovered Dzogchen and it's gotten them a bit gassed up. Just have patience with such people; the phase will eventually pass.
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby heart » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:25 am

Jyoti wrote:
heart wrote:What is mind then if it isn't consciousness Jyoti? Whether you subscribe to the idea of six consciousness or eight consciousness I think it is certain you will find mind in them.


To define mind as capacity to hold thought of ignorance and/or knowledge is the 6th and 7th consciousnesses, the other consciousnesses have no such capacity, so they were not consider as mind.

Jyoti


So you are saying mind is consciousness, not just the consciousness of the five senses?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:26 am

MalaBeads wrote:I really have no idea what Jyoti is referring to when she speaks of the 'body' or even 'the wisdom of the body'.


I haven't finished reading this thread so maybe Jyoti or someone else has already responded to this... But Jyoti actually defined her usage of "body" on another thread as "dharmadhatu."
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:32 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Don't want to be a meanie, but which of the four reliances is that? Your version/translation doesn’t sound right to me at all.


They are different translations but they are all correct. The differences of the translation is due to the definition of the intellect. For person who has not attain the 'intellect in concordance with the reason' or the 'intellect of the origin' (根本智), the consciousness is defined as deluded conceptions. But for person who attained the 'intellect of the origin' (根本智), the consciousness is defined as the body of the intellect, this includes the so called self-existing, primordial wisdom that are often mentioned in dzogchen.

but is actual vidya itself – direct knowledge of the basis. That is why in yogacara your view of "thusness" will always have, as it were, inverted commas around it


The basis is none other than thusness, the reason of thusness is the vidya, abiding in the reason is the intellect. The terminology is different, the meaning is the same.

That's why we look at ego as the cause of suffering in the basic sense.


The teaching of definitive meaning like yogacara and dzogchen arrived directly at the cessation of suffering, thus positing a suffering, is positing the existence of the other 3 noble truths, thus leading to confusion in such teachings.

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:37 am

Andrew108 wrote:From my own side I think Yogachara is very much brain-centred. I don't think Dzogchen is. What I mean is that in Yogachara there is a holding onto moments of consciousness. Personally I think these moments are explained by looking at the way the brain works. If I held a Yogacharan position then recent scientific developments would somewhat undermine that position.

Tashi delek,

I fully agree that Dzogchen cannot be compared to Mahamudra (that we got allready investigated to the bottom) and that does count too for Yogachara / Chittamatra. Conciousness, karma, dualism is not encountered in Dzogchen in practice. Well in explaining we make use of the same conciousness, only to get explained what about dualisms.


In Dzogchen, consciousness is not taken as being foundational and there is the notion of purity in that nothing can be found or established as foundational. Dzogchen's view is more pervasive. Our experience is all part of this pure, perfect, and present expression, its not linked to moments of consciousness. Dzogchen is not brain-based and this is very important.

Correct. In Dzogchen,there is never make use of the conciousness, except at the very moment to get explained something.


I feel that a lot if the issues are quite simple. We don't need to use complicated language. In yogachara there seems some permanent source that in a way acts as a cause. We uncover it or get to know it and we get a realization as a result. In dzogchen pure and perfect means that there is no underlying mechanism that produces what we experience. And realization is not a result. Dharmata is not producing results and neither is it acting as a cause.

Correct. In Dzogchen we don' t see a cause, because everything is self emergent.

There are those who think they are understanding Dzogchen when in fact they are holding a Yogacharan view. And there are those who think that by knowing Yogachara they will know Dzogchen. I understand the connection between Yogachara and Dzogchen and importantly I know the differences. In simple terms Yogachara is like being stuck inside a box. Dzogchen on the other hand is completely open and inclusive. That's what inspires me. Also Yogacharans and Dzogchenpas need a bit of Madyamaka in order to not get stuck. But this is my opinion based on the notion that Dzogchen Semde is the best place to start.

Sure there are persons who even cannot at all understand the Dzogchen view. They colour all with their pre assumed way of thinking. Dzogchen is never based on thoughts. If there is a thought about Dzogchen then it is right on no Dzogchen anymore.

So i would say lets make a try to practice Dzogchen Jyoti, then we talk more about the problems you would encounter.
These problems would certainly be based on the wrong understanding.
Water can be poured into water that is no problem. But we never can put into water earth and then expect that it will become water. So big do i see the difference between Yogachara and Dzogchen. Dzogchen can never and never be compared to other philosophies etc. We get learned / teached in Dzogchen that in Dzogchen we can never take something out but we also never can add there something.

That illustrates very clear the completeness of Dzogchen. Well that all is not based on (illusionary) words but on practice. So without the Direct Introduction and Ngondros, no practice possible and therefore no clear vision is possible. But if persons like Jyoti do insist on the defending of a position then that is based on not practising Dzogchen.
So if the practice would be there then there is no need to defend certain positions which are certainly true in Yogachara / Chittamatra, but never can be compared to Dzogchen.

So Jyoti can make argumentations for an eon based on her philosophy, but then Dzogchen can not still / never be compared to her point of view. :crying:
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Stewart » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:54 am

Kalden, no disrespect, but you seem to have a real problem with there being any connection with Dzogchen and Mahamudra!! It's comes up now and then. You seem desparate to separate them.

Not sure exactly why this is, but many great masters of the past and present practice both, and have taught that they are compatible and/or equal.

Okay Dzogchen doesn't have Togal, but many people don't even practice this in there whole lifetime anyway, (or think/say they do but really, don't) so what's the root of your aversion to this idea?

Many great modern masters, who I believe have actually have direct, concrete experience of these teachings and the various methods involved, say they are the same including my own Guru and his brothers, their father Tulku Urgyen, Garchen Rinpoche etc. even ChNN links the two in terms of Direct Introduction and Result. I prefer to rely on their advice.
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:02 am

heart wrote:So you are saying mind is consciousness, not just the consciousness of the five senses?


Yes and the 5 senses are consciousnesses, not mind.
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby heart » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:14 am

Jyoti wrote:
heart wrote:So you are saying mind is consciousness, not just the consciousness of the five senses?


Yes and the 5 senses are consciousnesses, not mind.


Ok, but then I have a big problem understanding how that would separate Yogacara from any other Buddhist philosophical school of taught since all Buddhist would accept that the world is experienced through the five senses. To say that what we see is the eye consciousness hardly seems revolutionary. The eye consciousness is not conceptual so our liking and disliking are still in the mind as well as all types of action we take on whatever we see.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:31 am

... point of view, or tawa, is developed by looking at an object. You consider that this is good, that is bad, judging as though you were looking at an object. Your senses are pointed at an object, and you do an analysis and form a judgment. In that way, maybe, you can develop some type of intellectual study.
... That is not, however, the solution for overcoming samsara or obtaining realization. Discovering your own real nature means that you must observe yourself rather than only observing other objects. That is why, in the Dzogchen teaching, we use the example of looking in the mirror.


- Chögyal Namkhai Norbu - Dzogchen Teachings -
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:36 am

heart wrote:The eye consciousness is not conceptual so our liking and disliking are still in the mind as well as all types of action we take on whatever we see.


The 6th consciousness is the one that is able to discriminate instinctively (the liking and disliking) the impressions received from the 5 senses, thus the wisdom of this consciousness. The teaching of the 2 yanas only taught these 6 consciousnesses, whereas the 7th and 8th consciousness only taught in the mahayana, this reason for this according to the definitive scriptures is that the teaching of the 2 yanas does not contain the various intellects of bodhisattvas and buddhas.

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby heart » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:46 am

Jyoti wrote:
heart wrote:The eye consciousness is not conceptual so our liking and disliking are still in the mind as well as all types of action we take on whatever we see.


The 6th consciousness is the one that is able to discriminate instinctively (the liking and disliking) the impressions received from the 5 senses, thus the wisdom of this consciousness. The teaching of the 2 yanas only taught these 6 consciousnesses, whereas the 7th and 8th consciousness only taught in the mahayana, this reason for this according to the definitive scriptures is that the teaching of the 2 yanas does not contain the various intellects of bodhisattvas and buddhas.

Jyoti


Yes Jyoti, but since all yanas accept that your experience is the five consciousness + mind consciousness what is Yogacara point of view that differs from the other philosophical schools?

/magnus
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:56 am

heart wrote:Yes Jyoti, but since all yanas accept that your experience is the five consciousness + mind consciousness what is Yogacara point of view that differs from the other philosophical schools?


The yogacara of chinese buddhism differs from other philosophical schools that accept the 8 consciousnesses is the method of analysis based on the body and means.
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:37 pm

Stewart wrote:Kalden, no disrespect, but you seem to have a real problem with there being any connection with Dzogchen and Mahamudra!! It's comes up now and then. You seem desparate to separate them.

Tashi delek,

Thanks for the reply.

Not at all do i have a problem with Mahamudra how it is practised and it is usefull as such.
I came straight out of Kagyud and i did practice Mahamudra for a long time, but it did end for me at some point as NOT convincing.

There was something missing and in Bon Dzogchen i got the answers. So i am not talking about books and words but about practice related insights.

Can compare Mahamudra only to Trekchod like i did practised and did experience it as such. Yes and here we got the big difference, here does Mahamudra ends and Dzogchen continues with Thogal.
Thogal and Bardo are very important.......


Not sure exactly why this is, but many great masters of the past and present practice both, and have taught that they are compatible and/or equal.

Yes even in the Kanying monastery in Nepal they first practice Mahamudra and then go on with Dzogchen :applause:

Okay Dzogchen doesn't have Togal, but many people don't even practice this in there whole lifetime anyway, (or think/say they do but really, don't) so what's the root of your aversion to this idea?

Dzogchen has Thogal but Mahamudra doesn' t have it..... ;)


Many great modern masters, who I believe have actually have direct, concrete experience of these teachings and the various methods involved, say they are the same including my own Guru and his brothers, their father Tulku Urgyen, Garchen Rinpoche etc. even ChNN links the two in terms of Direct Introduction and Result. I prefer to rely on their advice.

Sure do it it are your Masters anyway but my Masters say something else namely in their Dzogchen books / literature is not spoken of that mingling etc. But they agree that Mahamudra is equal to Trekchod but then starts Dzogchen with Thogal and this is unmistakenly here aboard discussed, so we realy know it now at the moment very well...... or not?
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Stewart » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:03 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Stewart wrote:Kalden, no disrespect, but you seem to have a real problem with there being any connection with Dzogchen and Mahamudra!! It's comes up now and then. You seem desparate to separate them.

Tashi delek,

Thanks for the reply.

Not at all do i have a problem with Mahamudra how it is practised and it is usefull as such.
I came straight out of Kagyud and i did practice Mahamudra for a long time, but it did end for me at some point as NOT convincing.

Sorry, but then you never really understood it, I don't care how long you 'practiced' it. Mahamudra can result in complete awakening in single lifetime, just look at the Mahasiddhas and hundreds of masters after them.

There was something missing and in Bon Dzogchen i got the answers. So i am not talking about books and words but about practice related insights.

Just words, your attitude betrays any real insight though.

Can compare Mahamudra only to Trekchod like i did practised and did experience it as such. Yes and here we got the big difference, here does Mahamudra ends and Dzogchen continues with Thogal.
Thogal and Bardo are very important.......


Mahamudra 'ends' in awakening. There are Bardo teachings in Kagyu.

Not sure exactly why this is, but many great masters of the past and present practice both, and have taught that they are compatible and/or equal.

Yes even in the Kanying monastery in Nepal they first practice Mahamudra and then go on with Dzogchen :applause:

They don't 'start with Mahamudra' they practice both, this is a misleading statement Kalden.

Okay Dzogchen doesn't have Togal, but many people don't even practice this in there whole lifetime anyway, (or think/say they do but really, don't) so what's the root of your aversion to this idea?

Dzogchen has Thogal but Mahamudra doesn' t have it..... ;)

That was obviously a mis-type, my bad.


Many great modern masters, who I believe have actually have direct, concrete experience of these teachings and the various methods involved, say they are the same including my own Guru and his brothers, their father Tulku Urgyen, Garchen Rinpoche etc. even ChNN links the two in terms of Direct Introduction and Result. I prefer to rely on their advice.

Sure do it it are your Masters anyway but my Masters say something else namely in their Dzogchen books / literature is not spoken of that mingling etc. But they agree that Mahamudra is equal to Trekchod but then starts Dzogchen with Thogal and this is unmistakenly here aboard discussed, so we realy know it now at the moment very well...... or not?


My point is many Dzogchen practitioners only practice Trekcho, and gain results....Also many people say they practice Togal but are not ready or trying to convince everyone else they have insight. I prefer to believe my masters.

Ps. Read the whole post for replies...typing on my phone has messed up quotes!
Last edited by Stewart on Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby heart » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:12 pm

Jyoti wrote:
heart wrote:Yes Jyoti, but since all yanas accept that your experience is the five consciousness + mind consciousness what is Yogacara point of view that differs from the other philosophical schools?


The yogacara of chinese buddhism differs from other philosophical schools that accept the 8 consciousnesses is the method of analysis based on the body and means.


Like for example?

/magnus
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:21 pm

Stewart wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Stewart wrote:Kalden, no disrespect, but you seem to have a real problem with there being any connection with Dzogchen and Mahamudra!! It's comes up now and then. You seem desparate to separate them.

Tashi delek,

Thanks for the reply.

Not at all do i have a problem with Mahamudra how it is practised and it is usefull as such.
I came straight out of Kagyud and i did practice Mahamudra for a long time, but it did end for me at some point as NOT convincing.

Sorry, but then you never really understood it, I don't care how long you 'practiced' it. Mahamudra can result in complete awakening in single lifetime, just look at the Mahasiddhas and hundreds of masters after them.

There was something missing and in Bon Dzogchen i got the answers. So i am not talking about books and words but about practice related insights.

Just words, your attitude betrays any real insight though.

Can compare Mahamudra only to Trekchod like i did practised and did experience it as such. Yes and here we got the big difference, here does Mahamudra ends and Dzogchen continues with Thogal.
Thogal and Bardo are very important.......


Mahamudra 'ends' in awakening. There are Bardo teachings in Kagyu.

Not sure exactly why this is, but many great masters of the past and present practice both, and have taught that they are compatible and/or equal.

Yes even in the Kanying monastery in Nepal they first practice Mahamudra and then go on with Dzogchen :applause:

They don't 'start with Mahamudra' they practice both, this is a misleading statement Kalden.

Okay Dzogchen doesn't have Togal, but many people don't even practice this in there whole lifetime anyway, (or think/say they do but really, don't) so what's the root of your aversion to this idea?

Dzogchen has Thogal but Mahamudra doesn' t have it..... ;)

That was obviously a mis-type, my bad.


Many great modern masters, who I believe have actually have direct, concrete experience of these teachings and the various methods involved, say they are the same including my own Guru and his brothers, their father Tulku Urgyen, Garchen Rinpoche etc. even ChNN links the two in terms of Direct Introduction and Result. I prefer to rely on their advice.

Sure do it it are your Masters anyway but my Masters say something else namely in their Dzogchen books / literature is not spoken of that mingling etc. But they agree that Mahamudra is equal to Trekchod but then starts Dzogchen with Thogal and this is unmistakenly here aboard discussed, so we realy know it now at the moment very well...... or not?


My point is many Dzogchen practitioners only practice Trekcho, and gain results....Also many people say they practice Togal but are not ready or trying to convince everyone else they have insight. I prefer to believe my masters.



Tashi delek,

Like i tried to explain, Mahamudra as well Dzogchen is practice related and not based on opinions etc.
If we practice Trekchod in my practice, then the Thogal is inseparbale connected to this experience.

But there are not so skilled practitioners they need to do it step by step also in the understanding. Fur that purpose the Dzogchen Masters divide it (Trekchod and Thogal), only to make this understandable, but in fact we cannot divide Trekchod and Thogal because they are yermed or inseparable connected.

Insight etc. is a question of study Rigpa IMO, but the practice is experiencing awareness of the Lamps which are self emanating as Wisdom Lights, again very important in the Bardo experience / awareness.

A very famous Bardo saying would be:
Know that it is you what you are experiencing (the Lights). They are not coming from outside.... :bow:
Here there is not spoken of external objects or dualisms. That is also the aim in the actual Dzogchen practice. ;)
With that in mind, liberation can attained in the Bardo State and if we did the practice someone else can remember us what we have practiced, then the Bardo Todrol can be of importance to someone.

Best wishes with your individual practice, anyway. :)

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:26 pm

[quote="Jyoti"]... abiding in the reason is the intellect.[quote]

You don't need the intellect to integrate your real nature into every perception, thought, desire or action. In dzogchen behavior is absolute spontaneity beyond adherence to rules or principles, carried out beyond specific sessions of contemplation into daily activities and even sleep. Regarding this behavior Padmasambhava says "one should neither accept nor reject anything, thus never falling into partiality". Behavior is the spontaneous flow of activity which is beyond intellectual acceptance and rejection and therefore beyond intellectual partiality insofar as the state of knowledge itself is totally beyond judgment. Its essence is that it is uncontrived.

The careless craziness of destroying clinging to a style …
may this human lifetime be spent in this State of uninhibited, naked ease.

Dudjom Rinpoche in the poem entitled Calling the Lama from Afar

Jyoti, Tiger, viniketa:

Dzogchempas have been getting themselves into trouble with unconventional perceptions, thoughts, desires, actions since day one. The bad reputations we get are actually helpful, if you can believe it - as long as our actions are genuine spontaneous and not just an act.

In any event a cramped intellect has nothing to do with behavior in Dzogchen. In fact, If you can believe it, technically speaking this form of "abiding in the reason", as you put it in your language above, that is, what we call "careless craziness", is actually the form of refuge in the third jewel which we have in Dzogchen.
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:28 pm

heart wrote:Like for example?


You can read more about the origin of the method of body and means (體用) from here:

http://www.buddhism.org/board/read.cgi? ... _number=60

Jyoti
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Jyoti
 
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