Yogacara and dzogchen

Sherlock
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Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Sherlock » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:54 pm


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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby MalaBeads » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:08 pm

I'm glad someone started this thread.

I've only recently become aware of this book and am wondering if anyone has read it and/or understands it?

I have not read it and am pretty sure I wouldn't understand it if I had. Nonetheless, from the Amazon review, it seems like a pretty significant publication and may contribute to the conversation here.

The only thing I seem to understand from reading the original thread (that promoted this one) is that Mahayana as practiced today in China is not Mahayana as practiced today in the west. For me anyway, that is the starting point for any meaningful dialogue.


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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:59 am


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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby purple rose » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:51 am



When using quotes from a different topic please indicate which topic the quote is from so as to avoid confusion. Not everyone reads every topic.

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby mutsuk » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:45 pm


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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby username » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:56 pm

I disagree with many points Jyoti states regarding Dzogchen & Yogacara & other buddhist vehicles but we have to distinguish two groups of people. Firstly those who mix Dzogchen with other doctrines, including non Buddhist ones, to create a new ideology to set up as a business and as a self appointed guru fishing for disciples mainly for financial reasons as we have even seen them declare so openly on various web forums for many years. These are what Trungpa Rinpoche often warned against as Spiritual Materialists & they are a danger to themselves & others. Such people are often, but not always, not only unopposed but unfortunately encouraged to set up their novel lineages. But Jyoti is not one of these. She belongs to another group which is that of an honest seeker of truth IMO & will be fine in the end because her intentions are properly motivated. We all make mistakes and it often took many of us years to come to even realize this: that as beginners we have much, and I mean most of the teachings, to learn from our lineage masters yet to this very day hence our regular mistakes, speaking for myself. So I wish Jyoti the best of luck on her path.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby mutsuk » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:20 pm


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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby username » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:39 pm

Hi mutsuk. On your first point, that is just my impression. On your second point, I agree with what you said but I doubt this stage of her not wanting to accept certain basic points of Vajrayana/Dzogchen, some of which she also denies, will last for ever. I could be wrong though. I think at some stage, maybe years, she will have to either accept or reject them & realize one can not have one's cake and eat it too. Basically you can not pick & choose from the basic tenets of Vajrayana/Dzogchen to mix with others as a new path saying on those points Vajrayana/Dzogchen are wrong!

On your third point as I said recently: when you talk to Khenpos who have researched for 4 or more decades in advanced topics & still say there is so much more to learn as only the surface is scratched, we as beginners realize we really have not even started learning properly. I do not think your marvelous effort was wasted as they will prove fruitful for her in the long run as well as benefiting others & I thank you for that. As I said the real danger often in the west is for those who are looking to create such syncretic ideologies (as you have opposed) in their own words to get disciples, ie: business, which can really harm others. But that is not her motive. However you do have a point as even if our motives are pure, in essence, who knows how long or little we have to live and what will happen to us in the meantime. Nothing is certain. All the best on your wonderful researches.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:00 am


Andrew108
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Andrew108 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:12 am

Jyoti. Just a few points.
1. There are no scriptures of definitive meaning.
2. The visions don't really have a purpose except to inspire the practitioner to move past the intellect.
3. Look at what's real past thinking mind.
So the idea I'm presenting here is that a large part of Buddhist practice is about not attaching to appearances as well as having the discipline to let things go. It seems that your approach is heavily intellectual and this in itself obscures.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby tomamundsen » Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:16 am


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Jyoti
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:57 am


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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:27 am

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:17 am


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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:34 am

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Andrew108 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:05 pm

The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Andrew108 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:13 pm

Jhoti , what do you mean by intellect? This seems a strange term to use in this context. I'm wondering if there is a translation issue here?
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Jyoti
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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:17 pm


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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby heart » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:27 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Yogacara and dzogchen

Postby Jyoti » Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:30 pm



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