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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:49 pm 
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Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche briefly mentions in his book Rainbow Painting (pg. 120) six types of mindfulness within the dzogchen tradition specifically:

"...Often there is mention of several types of mindfulness: deliberate mindfulness, effortless mindfulness, dharmatā mindfulness, wisdom mindfulness, all-pervasive mindfulness and so forth. These latter terms lay out in great detail the differences between the seven impure and the three pure bhumis. Of course we could delve into this terminology intellectually, but that is not so beneficial at this time. The different stages have to be related to our personal experience.

The dzogchen tradition describes six types of mindfulness. Other systems mention only two: deliberate and effortless. The first type is called mindfulness of deliberate attention. The second type is called innate mindfulness. The dzogchen tradition phrases it this way: 'Sustain primordially free awareness with innate mindfulness.' There is no transformation involved here at all. It is the original state of awareness that is sustained by natural mindfulness. The ultimate is 'all-pervasive mindfulness' in which there is no distraction whatsoever. Awareness reaches as far as space reaches. It is unbroken and without interruption. Day and night, there is only all-encompassing awareness. All distraction has vanished into the state of dharmatā. This is the dharmakāya of all buddhas...."


He mentions that they lay out in great detail differences in relation to the bhumis, and I'd assume compare and contrast the differences between themselves, although that is merely a guess. I was curious to know where more information might be available on these six aspects of mindfulness? Or where these six aspects of mindfulness are originally discussed in reference to the tantras or termas etc. I realize that very rarely are hierarchical degrees or stages mentioned in reference to dzogchen, and for good reason, but these peaked my interest and I figured I'd see if anyone else knew anything about them.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:34 am 
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Bhumis in Dzogchen? ... does he "really" talks about Dzogchen?

Sönam

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:49 am 
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Sönam wrote:
Bhumis in Dzogchen? ... does he "really" talks about Dzogchen?


Of course he talks about Dzogchen. There are 16 bhumis in Dzogchen, defined in the Rig-pa rang-shar and elsewhere (Longchenpa, etc.).


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:14 am 
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mutsuk wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Bhumis in Dzogchen? ... does he "really" talks about Dzogchen?


Of course he talks about Dzogchen. There are 16 bhumis in Dzogchen, defined in the Rig-pa rang-shar and elsewhere (Longchenpa, etc.).


thank you ... can you inform me more? where do they take place at the moment of the arising of the intrinsic awareness from the basis and the apprehension of the appearances as others (or not)?

Sönam

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:36 pm 
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Buddhist mindfulness seems similar to "heightened awareness of consciousness" ...


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:49 am 
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mutsuk wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Bhumis in Dzogchen? ... does he "really" talks about Dzogchen?


Of course he talks about Dzogchen. There are 16 bhumis in Dzogchen, defined in the Rig-pa rang-shar and elsewhere (Longchenpa, etc.).


Sorry, I am just a humble fool regarding philosophy, but I heard otherwise from a student of Mr. Norbu. I was told that in Dzogchen there is only one Bhumi. Either you recognize the mind of clear light and are in Rigpa or you don't. I am not trying to disagree with you here, I am just pointing out a contradiction which comes to me. Being quite ignorant of the intricacies of Buddhist and Dzogchen philosophy, I am eager to learn.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:01 am 
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Skywalker wrote:
mutsuk wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Bhumis in Dzogchen? ... does he "really" talks about Dzogchen?


Of course he talks about Dzogchen. There are 16 bhumis in Dzogchen, defined in the Rig-pa rang-shar and elsewhere (Longchenpa, etc.).


Sorry, I am just a humble fool regarding philosophy, but I heard otherwise from a student of Mr. Norbu. I was told that in Dzogchen there is only one Bhumi. Either you recognize the mind of clear light and are in Rigpa or you don't. I am not trying to disagree with you here, I am just pointing out a contradiction which comes to me. Being quite ignorant of the intricacies of Buddhist and Dzogchen philosophy, I am eager to learn.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
:namaste:

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Sixteen_bhumis

Sixteen bhumis (Wyl. sa bcu drug) —

Perfect Joy (Skt. pramuditābhūmi; Tib. rabtu gawa; Wyl. rab tu dga’ ba)
Immaculate / Stainless (Skt. vimalābhūmi; Tib. drima mepa; Wyl. dri ma med pa)
Luminous / Illuminating (Skt. prabhākarībhūmi; Tib. ö jepa; Wyl. ‘od byed pa)
Radiant (Skt. arciṣmatībhūmi; Tib. ö tro chen; Wyl. ‘od ‘phro can)
Hard to Keep / Hard to Conquer (Skt. sudurjayābhūmi; Tib. shintu jankawa; Wyl. shin tu sbyang dka’ ba)
Clearly Manifest (Skt. abhimukhībhūmi; Tib. ngöntu gyurpa; Wyl. mngon du gyur ba)
Far Progressed (Skt. duraṅgamabhūmi; Tib. ringtu songwa; Wyl. ring du song ba)
Immovable (Skt. acālabhūmi; Tib. miyowa; Wyl. mi g.yo ba)
Perfect Intellect (Skt. sādhuṃatībhūmi; Tib. lekpé lodrö; Wyl. legs pa’i blo gros)
Cloud of Dharma (Skt. dharmameghaābhūmi; Tib. chökyi trin; Wyl. chos kyi sprin)
Universal Radiance (Tib. kuntu ö; Wyl. kun tu 'od)
Lotus of Non-Attachment (Tib. machak pema chen; Wyl. ma chags padma can)
Gatherings of Rotating Syllables (Tib. yige khorlo tsokchen; Wyl. yi ge 'khor lo tshogs chen)
Great Samadhi (Tib. tingdzin chenpo; Wyl. ting nge 'dzin chen po)
Vajra Holder (Tib. dorje dzin; Wyl. rdo rje 'dzin)
Unexcelled Wisdom (Tib. yeshe lama; Wyl. ye shes bla ma)

Please to remember that Dzogchen is totally beyond any concept or characteristics whatsoever, yet everything manifests exactly as it should (as it is).

So if the formulation that expresses as one Bhumi arises, this is contained within Dzogchen.
If the formulation that expresses as 16 Bhumis arises, ( or any number) then that, is equally contained within Dzogchen.
If no formulation arises, this is also contained within Dzogchen.
Please to remember that Dzogchen does not make any of these claims.

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=8243#p98902

These are imputations, in words, of the characteristics of Dzogchen, and by definition are limited to the realm of words.

The 17 +2 Dzogchen Tantras are not Dzogchen. They are words about Dzogchen.

Please to remember that Dzogchen cannot even name itself and any attempt is like trying to write on air or water: there is nothing to adher to.
It is a different dimension - a different frame of reference.

Hence the key point about the necessity of taking the pointing out instruction from a Dzogchen Master. This is the single point that contains all.

Homage to the Dzogchen Masters, may they live long, in good health, and with success in all things.

:heart:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:54 am 
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Only partly relevant, but I found the following quote interesting:

Quote:
“Broadly speaking, there are six types of mindfulness, but they can be condensed into two: deliberate and effortless mindfulness. The latter is Dzogchen’s extraordinary king of mindfulness -- being inseparable from rigpa -- which can be applied wherever you are, in all situations.” -- Tsoknyi RInpoche

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:16 pm 
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Found this on the bhūmi's, they're innate aspects of the primordial state and though they're always presented as a hierarchical structure, because dzogchen isn't a gradual or causal vehicle they shouldn't be approached as separate levels in a structured hierarchy...

"Well, if I am really a buddha right now, are the six levels of realization present or not? They are totally, absolutely present!

'The sign of this unceasing, self-arising pristine awareness is the utter clarity of the five sense organs. This is called 'the level of light everywhere'. The absence of any form of attachment or objectification is known as 'desireless lotus'. This state of pure and total presence which does not arise and is indestructible I also call indestructible comprehension. Self-arising pristine awareness is arrayed throughout my immeasurable, true nature. This is known as 'the level of intense display'. All the phenomena which exist in the integrative structure of pure and total presence, my very self, are known as 'the level of the great wheel of letters'. Because form, communication, and awareness neither come about, nor are they destroyed. This is known as 'the level of indestructible comprehension'. Here cause and effect are not different. The phenomena which arise from mind - good and bad, acceptance and rejection - are primordially nonexistent. This I call 'the level of non-differentiation'.'

Though we can distinguish six aspects in this unity, they are not other than the singular dimension of self-arising pristine awareness. Thus we speak of 'the one level of total completeness'.
This present awareness, from the very beginning, is without obstructions and does not stir from reality as-it-is. The individual clarity of the five sense perceptions and the individual clarity of the passions manifesting as the five pristine awarenesses are known as the play of pristine awareness. Because they are complete in themselves without having to be sought for, it is not necessary to hope or fear."

"'Light everywhere' is the eleventh bodhisattva level, 'desireless lotus' is the twelfth, 'intense display' is the thirteenth, 'the great wheel of letters' is the fourteenth, 'indestructible comprehension' is the fifteenth, and 'non-differentiation' is the sixteenth. For a detailed discussion of the ten lower stages (bhūmis) see H.V. Guenther, 'The Jewel Ornament of Liberation', (Berkeley; Shambhala 1971). The eleventh through sixteenth levels are discussed in the gsang ba'i snying po and it's many commentaries, for which see 'Matrix Of Mystery'."

- Longchenpa|Kennard Lipman|Merrill Peterson, (2000). "You Are The Eyes Of The World", Snow Lion


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Skywalker wrote:
mutsuk wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Bhumis in Dzogchen? ... does he "really" talks about Dzogchen?


Of course he talks about Dzogchen. There are 16 bhumis in Dzogchen, defined in the Rig-pa rang-shar and elsewhere (Longchenpa, etc.).


Sorry, I am just a humble fool regarding philosophy, but I heard otherwise from a student of Mr. Norbu. I was told that in Dzogchen there is only one Bhumi. Either you recognize the mind of clear light and are in Rigpa or you don't. I am not trying to disagree with you here, I am just pointing out a contradiction which comes to me. Being quite ignorant of the intricacies of Buddhist and Dzogchen philosophy, I am eager to learn.


Both are correct. There is only a single bhumi; and in there are also sixteen bhumis. There is a single stage from the point of view of reality, and sixteen stages from the point of view of experience on the path.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:09 pm 
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oldbob wrote:

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Sixteen_bhumis

Sixteen bhumis (Wyl. sa bcu drug) —

Perfect Joy (Skt. pramuditābhūmi; Tib. rabtu gawa; Wyl. rab tu dga’ ba)
Immaculate / Stainless (Skt. vimalābhūmi; Tib. drima mepa; Wyl. dri ma med pa)
Luminous / Illuminating (Skt. prabhākarībhūmi; Tib. ö jepa; Wyl. ‘od byed pa)
Radiant (Skt. arciṣmatībhūmi; Tib. ö tro chen; Wyl. ‘od ‘phro can)
Hard to Keep / Hard to Conquer (Skt. sudurjayābhūmi; Tib. shintu jankawa; Wyl. shin tu sbyang dka’ ba)
Clearly Manifest (Skt. abhimukhībhūmi; Tib. ngöntu gyurpa; Wyl. mngon du gyur ba)
Far Progressed (Skt. duraṅgamabhūmi; Tib. ringtu songwa; Wyl. ring du song ba)
Immovable (Skt. acālabhūmi; Tib. miyowa; Wyl. mi g.yo ba)
Perfect Intellect (Skt. sādhuṃatībhūmi; Tib. lekpé lodrö; Wyl. legs pa’i blo gros)
Cloud of Dharma (Skt. dharmameghaābhūmi; Tib. chökyi trin; Wyl. chos kyi sprin)
Universal Radiance (Tib. kuntu ö; Wyl. kun tu 'od)
Lotus of Non-Attachment (Tib. machak pema chen; Wyl. ma chags padma can)
Gatherings of Rotating Syllables (Tib. yige khorlo tsokchen; Wyl. yi ge 'khor lo tshogs chen)
Great Samadhi (Tib. tingdzin chenpo; Wyl. ting nge 'dzin chen po)
Vajra Holder (Tib. dorje dzin; Wyl. rdo rje 'dzin)
Unexcelled Wisdom (Tib. yeshe lama; Wyl. ye shes bla ma)

:heart:



I just thought I'd add a bit here, much of which is the exact same, just different english terms, since the sanskrit and tibetan are the same, except for the 11th stage. quotes from, The Nyingma School of Tibetan Buddhism Its Fundamentals and History by Dudjom Rinpoche and Jikdrel Yeshe Dorje (2nd edition)

Glossary of Enumerations:

Ten Levels (of Bodhisattvas) [ sa bcd] [skt. Dasabhumi]
The Joyful, The Immaculate, the Illuminating, the Flaming, the Hard to Conquer, the Manifest, the Far-Reaching, the Unmoving, the Excellent Intelligence and the Cloud Doctrine.

Eleven Levels (of a Buddha) [ sa bcu-gcig]
According to the causal vehicles, a buddha attains eleven levels, namely, the TEN LEVELS OF BODHISATTVAS with the addition of the level of Universal Light [kun-tu-'od, Skt. Samantaprabha]

Sixteen Levels [ sa bcu-drug]
The ELEVEN LEVELS OF A BUDDHA, to which are added the following: (12) Unattached Lotus Endowed, (13) Great Cloud Mass of Rotating Symbols, (14) Great Contemplation, (15) Holder of Indestructible Reality, and (16) Unsurpassed Pristine Cognition.

...

just thought i'd add some clarity to where these levels come from.

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