Dharma Wheel

treehuggingoctopus wrote:EDIT: Andrew108 and Heart, please don't take it personally. My intention is not to criticise anybody but bring what I consider to be a problem into focus.

treehuggingoctopus wrote: : Andrew108 and Heart, please don't take it personally. My intention is not to criticise anybody but bring what I consider to be a problem into focus.

MalaBeads wrote:I appreciate many of the recent posts here. And while I agree that many lamas would not appreciate what is being done here, that lack of appreciation is a cultural thing, I think. We do things differently in the west. That's just how it is. After a while, you begin to fine tune your sensibilities about what is useful and what is not.

I think there is some practice wisdom that's being shared. As far as "trusting" someone else's experience, I would add a note of caution. Not because it is an Internet forum but simply because It's someone else's experience.

Inge wrote:

dakini_boi wrote:

Malcolm wrote: There is really no need to follow other yānas if you are a Dzogchen practitioner. Why? Because the sgra thal 'gyur tantra is the root of all Dharma. It is the first Dharma ever taught to sentient beings. Every other Dharma comes from it.
M

Can you say more about the history of the sgra thal 'gyur tantra and the 17 tantras?

Do one need any particular empowerments or transmissions in order to study the sgra thal 'gyur?

heart wrote:
Ah well, what else is there to communicate.

/magnus

MalaBeads wrote:I appreciate many of the recent posts here. And while I agree that many lamas would not appreciate what is being done here, that lack of appreciation is a cultural thing, I think. We do things differently in the west. That's just how it is. After a while, you begin to fine tune your sensibilities about what is useful and what is not.

I think there is some practice wisdom that's being shared. As far as "trusting" someone else's experience, I would add a note of caution. Not because it is an Internet forum but simply because It's someone else's experience.

heart wrote: What I am saying is that no matter how you arrive at direct introduction, as in actually recognizing your natural state and not only being present at the direct introduction, after doing years and years of ngondro and yidam or by just accidentally participating in a Dzogchen teaching without any background in Dharma it just doesn't matter that much from my point of view. But no matter how we recognize the natural state our condition is still a very strong habit of delusion, anyone that pay some attention to their own mind will know this. This is why we practice, we need to let habitual delusion dissolve and gain confidence in the spontaneously present natural state. How do we do this? We use whatever it takes. Anything that actually work will do. Doesn't need to be Dzogchen, doesn't need to be Buddhism, doesn't even need to be anything spiritual at all. The main point is that it works. The nine yanas contain a huge amount of precious tools and teachings that are invaluable and a Dzogchen practitioner could apply them according to his/her condition, and in accordance with their Gurus timely advice, freely without limiting themselves in any way. Like Malcolm wrote above " the sgra thal 'gyur tantra is the root of all Dharma" meaning Dzogchen is the root of all Dharma, the heart of the matter.
I know some old western practitioners and yogis that follow the Dzogchen tradition and from their life stories and my own I have learned to take very serious the need for accumulation of merit and wisdom (meaning creating happiness in others and to keep an open mind), to purify everything you regret, to always pray wildly and freely to your Guru, to never forget the suffering of others and to have the intention of helping everyone to gain full realization and to always, whatever you do, try to rest in the natural state. Some need to study to get to the bottom of their personal attachments, some might need to practice a lot of austerity, some will need to server their Guru, some might need to learn how to dance, some might need to learn how to cry and so on endlessly in order unravel our clinging to delusion and our fear of plunging in to the natural state. There are no real rules actually, it is all damn personal.

/magnus

Yudron wrote:

MalaBeads wrote:I appreciate many of the recent posts here. And while I agree that many lamas would not appreciate what is being done here, that lack of appreciation is a cultural thing, I think. We do things differently in the west. That's just how it is. After a while, you begin to fine tune your sensibilities about what is useful and what is not.

I think there is some practice wisdom that's being shared. As far as "trusting" someone else's experience, I would add a note of caution. Not because it is an Internet forum but simply because It's someone else's experience.

My personal opinion is that we should respect the opinion of our root lamas on these matters, and try to apply their general advice about what to talk about and what not to talk about with others to our posts on internet forums. The key word here being "respect." If one has a lama who is relatively tight about these things and has articulated certain reasons for it, then it is good to demonstrate respect for our lama by honoring his/her opinion. Shutting up is a difficult practice, and I often fail at it, but I think it's good to try.

wisdomfire wrote:Regarding talking about one's own meditative experiences and instructions received from teachers, i have heard from masters that this will degenerate one's own experiences and insights and deplete the blessings of the lineage to you.

wisdomfire wrote:Don't get lost in the 'definitive meaning'.
In the ultimate truth, there is no idea of whether there is or is not a Buddha. Clinging to a concept of there not being a Buddha is just another form of concept.
You are still living in this world, and you still have to eat to survive right? It means you are still affected by relative conditions. So transmission still matters. Don't act like it don't and mislead others.

Virgo wrote:

heart wrote: What I am saying is that no matter how you arrive at direct introduction, as in actually recognizing your natural state and not only being present at the direct introduction, after doing years and years of ngondro and yidam or by just accidentally participating in a Dzogchen teaching without any background in Dharma it just doesn't matter that much from my point of view. But no matter how we recognize the natural state our condition is still a very strong habit of delusion, anyone that pay some attention to their own mind will know this. This is why we practice, we need to let habitual delusion dissolve and gain confidence in the spontaneously present natural state. How do we do this? We use whatever it takes. Anything that actually work will do. Doesn't need to be Dzogchen, doesn't need to be Buddhism, doesn't even need to be anything spiritual at all. The main point is that it works. The nine yanas contain a huge amount of precious tools and teachings that are invaluable and a Dzogchen practitioner could apply them according to his/her condition, and in accordance with their Gurus timely advice, freely without limiting themselves in any way. Like Malcolm wrote above " the sgra thal 'gyur tantra is the root of all Dharma" meaning Dzogchen is the root of all Dharma, the heart of the matter.
I know some old western practitioners and yogis that follow the Dzogchen tradition and from their life stories and my own I have learned to take very serious the need for accumulation of merit and wisdom (meaning creating happiness in others and to keep an open mind), to purify everything you regret, to always pray wildly and freely to your Guru, to never forget the suffering of others and to have the intention of helping everyone to gain full realization and to always, whatever you do, try to rest in the natural state. Some need to study to get to the bottom of their personal attachments, some might need to practice a lot of austerity, some will need to server their Guru, some might need to learn how to dance, some might need to learn how to cry and so on endlessly in order unravel our clinging to delusion and our fear of plunging in to the natural state. There are no real rules actually, it is all damn personal.

/magnus

Good post.