Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

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Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby Inge » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:07 pm

I wonder if the kind of contemplation where one imagines ones own death, the decomposition of the body until only bones are left, then bones turns to dust, and then finally even the dust vanish, could be considered also a method for recognizing the state of rigpa through the experience of emptiness?

Also, do you know if it is possible to recognize instant presence during a dream?
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby username » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:13 pm

Yes (very good) & yes. Also we can go beyond religious/ritual concepts and relax into life 24/7 to savor the flow of all.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby oldbob » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:16 pm

Inge wrote:I wonder if the kind of contemplation where one imagines ones own death, the decomposition of the body until only bones are left, then bones turns to dust, and then finally even the dust vanish, could be considered also a method for recognizing the state of rigpa through the experience of emptiness?

Also, do you know if it is possible to recognize instant presence during a dream?


Dear Inge all and ALL,

If you are a member of the DC, with transmission, then buy:

http://www.shangshungstore.org/index.ph ... tail&p=131


The Zer Nga is the practice that you are describing. I first heard about this practice from Ven. Lama Gonpo Tsetan Rinpoche, at a Yeshe Lama retreat, in 1980. He said that there used to be a Dzogchen preliminary practice like this, but that it was lost in time, and that he had heard about it, but did not practice it.

Then at the famous OZ retreat, in 1982, ChNNR taught the Zer Nga complete. What was lost in one part of Tibet was common (uncommon) practice in another. Lately, I don't believe that it has been taught too much. Yes, it dissolves the body back into its constituent elements and then resolves the elements into emptiness, and yes, this is a method for recognizing the state of Rigpa through the experience of emptiness. The practice involves extensive visualizations that should not be talked about in public. The visualizations are described, in detail, in the SSI booklet. It is NOT a comfortable practice - but it is very effective.

Better to get from a Teacher and then do a retreat with a Teacher around.

And - yes it is possible to recognize instant presence in a dream. Helps if you can do it during the day - first. :smile:

One pointed intention can do amazing things - so try to relax in awareness 24 /7. Not so easy ------ not so difficult.

Hope this helps!

:heart:
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby magnagei » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:35 pm

oldbob can you describe one pointed intention a little bit please?
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby dakini_boi » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:43 pm

Inge wrote:I wonder if the kind of contemplation where one imagines ones own death, the decomposition of the body until only bones are left, then bones turns to dust, and then finally even the dust vanish, could be considered also a method for recognizing the state of rigpa through the experience of emptiness?

Also, do you know if it is possible to recognize instant presence during a dream?


I think it would be more fun to imagine one's body turning into a rainbow and then vanishing. :anjali:
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby Sally Gross » Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:15 pm

oldbob wrote:One pointed intention can do amazing things - so try to relax in awareness 24 /7. Not so easy ------ not so difficult.
:heart:


One-pointed intention or one-pointed concentration?
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby oldbob » Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:32 am

Dear all and All,

By one pointed intention, I mean when your being is informed by that intention, 24/7.

So whatever you feel, or think, etc., is informed by that intention. An intention, could be doing your best, or maintaining awareness, or maintaining awareness of instant presence.

So if you have an Ah, or other holy symbol, in your heart, or your Teacher over your head, or in your heart, 24/7, then this will change you.

This is done without effort, like the smell of a flower or the shine of the sun. It becomes a natural expression of your being - not a willful act.

This is useful for continuing in practice 24/7.

One pointed concentration is when you fix your mind single pointedly on an object (the sensation of breath at the nostrils, a blue flower, etc.), or vast space, etc. :smile:

This is useful for entering the meditative absorptions.

Hope this helps.

:heart:
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby Sally Gross » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:54 am

oldbob wrote:Dear all and All,

By one pointed intention, I mean when your being is informed by that intention, 24/7.

So whatever you feel, or think, etc., is informed by that intention. An intention, could be doing your best, or maintaining awareness, or maintaining awareness of instant presence.

So if you have an Ah, or other holy symbol, in your heart, or your Teacher over your head, or in your heart, 24/7, then this will change you.

This is done without effort, like the smell of a flower or the shine of the sun. It becomes a natural expression of your being - not a willful act.

This is useful for continuing in practice 24/7.

One pointed concentration is when you fix your mind single pointedly on an object (the sensation of breath at the nostrils, a blue flower, etc.), or vast space, etc. :smile:

This is useful for entering the meditative absorptions.

Hope this helps.

:heart:


Thank you. It does clarify things.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby MalaBeads » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:55 pm

oldbob wrote:
It is NOT a comfortable practice - but it is very effective.




Old Bob,

Not a comfortable practice in what way? How not a comfortable practice?
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby Pero » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:18 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
oldbob wrote:
It is NOT a comfortable practice - but it is very effective.




Old Bob,

Not a comfortable practice in what way? How not a comfortable practice?

I don't think it can be explained without going into how it is done. But I think whether it's comfortable or not depends on the person. And, everything is relative, compared to Mandarava I guess it wouldn't be considered comfortable haha. If you've received direct introduction from Norbu Rinpoche you can get the book on it and what Bob said will be clear to you.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby oldbob » Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:20 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
Inge wrote:I wonder if the kind of contemplation where one imagines ones own death, the decomposition of the body until only bones are left, then bones turns to dust, and then finally even the dust vanish, could be considered also a method for recognizing the state of rigpa through the experience of emptiness?

Also, do you know if it is possible to recognize instant presence during a dream?


I think it would be more fun to imagine one's body turning into a rainbow and then vanishing. :anjali:


This is also my style.

:smile:

For Malabeads, read the booklet and then you will understand why I prefer rainbows, or Mandarava, to the Zer Nga. The Zer Nga also has its value. Perhaps discomfort is sometimes good so that you are able to understand that discomfort is also empty.

This can't be discussed in a public forum like DW.

These are all secondary practices and the main point is to do your best to be in the state of Guru Yoga, instant presence, 24/7. Then whatever practice you do will be of the same taste and be just fine.

Best. ob
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby magnagei » Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:26 pm

Thanks oldbob
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:41 pm

Pero wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:
oldbob wrote:
It is NOT a comfortable practice - but it is very effective.




Old Bob,

Not a comfortable practice in what way? How not a comfortable practice?

I don't think it can be explained without going into how it is done. But I think whether it's comfortable or not depends on the person. And, everything is relative, compared to Mandarava I guess it wouldn't be considered comfortable haha. If you've received direct introduction from Norbu Rinpoche you can get the book on it and what Bob said will be clear to you.


Would DI be enough? No lung required?
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby asunthatneversets » Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:45 pm

Inge wrote:I wonder if the kind of contemplation where one imagines ones own death, the decomposition of the body until only bones are left, then bones turns to dust, and then finally even the dust vanish, could be considered also a method for recognizing the state of rigpa through the experience of emptiness?


Some chod practices resemble visualizations like this, except during the practice after consciousness is ejected from the head (and is separated from the body below), one rests in equipoise and then visualizes oneself as the black troma nagmo dakini. As the black mother one envisions her dismembering your abandoned body, cutting off the head etc and assembling the pieces as a mandala offering for all the enlightened beings to come. Once the guests arrive the black dakini then prepares a feast with the body for the hordes of guests, there's lots of different recipes, in one the head is cut off and used as a container to stew the rest of the body, filleted skin is used as the tablecloth or for covering the ground etc. The body's prepared various ways for the large banquet of guests and then is devoured ravenously.

"Gesturing with the curved knife in her right hand [the dakini]
flays the skin which covers the ground.
Upon that the body's bloody flesh mass is chopped open
and becomes mountains of flesh to eat,
oceans of blood to drink,
rock piles of bone to gnaw,
hills of fat and grease to lick,
long bones and gristle to suck,
a space treasury of desirables,
veritable pleasure itself!"


Overcoming those subtle attachments to the notion of body is really important, they're extremely subtle and deeply engrained. Much like that Shri Singha quote Pero(I believe) has in his signature, where he addresses being presented with death and giving oneself up. Those "bonds" are important to investigate.
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby Pero » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:12 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Would DI be enough? No lung required?

Yup.

asunthatneversets wrote:Much like that Shri Singha quote Pero(I believe) has in his signature, where he addresses being presented with death and giving oneself up. Those "bonds" are important to investigate.

If you mean this quote by Shri Singha (posting it since I will be changing my sig now): If you think, 'I will have no karmic ripening even if I engage in the ten unvirtuous acts,' you should be able to accept the ten unvirtuous acts of others directed towards you—even if it might result in your death. Can you do that?

It's really about not getting delusional about our supposed realizations but that's more clear when read in context - The Treasure Of The Lotus Crystal Cave in Treasures From Juniper Ridge.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby asunthatneversets » Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:07 am

Pero wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:Would DI be enough? No lung required?

Yup.

asunthatneversets wrote:Much like that Shri Singha quote Pero(I believe) has in his signature, where he addresses being presented with death and giving oneself up. Those "bonds" are important to investigate.

If you mean this quote by Shri Singha (posting it since I will be changing my sig now): If you think, 'I will have no karmic ripening even if I engage in the ten unvirtuous acts,' you should be able to accept the ten unvirtuous acts of others directed towards you—even if it might result in your death. Can you do that?

It's really about not getting delusional about our supposed realizations but that's more clear when read in context - The Treasure Of The Lotus Crystal Cave in Treasures From Juniper Ridge.


True, same point I was attempting to make more or less, one shouldn't get all high and mighty off gaining a little insight and believe they've resolved all traces of ignorance, some traces are very subtle and unless some level definitive realization has been attained those karmic propensities still remain. I was just making the point that the subtle attachments to the body notion are some deeply held (or deeply latent) propensities.
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:27 am

Pero wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:Would DI be enough? No lung required?

Yup.


Thanks.
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby Andrew108 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:34 am

asunthatneversets wrote:True, same point I was attempting to make more or less, one shouldn't get all high and mighty off gaining a little insight and believe they've resolved all traces of ignorance, some traces are very subtle and unless some level definitive realization has been attained those karmic propensities still remain. I was just making the point that the subtle attachments to the body notion are some deeply held (or deeply latent) propensities.

I always like reading your posts. They are always informative. I wonder sometimes if the idea of achieving realization is somewhat false, as too is the idea that one already has realization? Perhaps we can discuss this idea further in another thread?
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby Pero » Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:58 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
Pero wrote:
treehuggingoctopus wrote:Would DI be enough? No lung required?

Yup.

asunthatneversets wrote:Much like that Shri Singha quote Pero(I believe) has in his signature, where he addresses being presented with death and giving oneself up. Those "bonds" are important to investigate.

If you mean this quote by Shri Singha (posting it since I will be changing my sig now): If you think, 'I will have no karmic ripening even if I engage in the ten unvirtuous acts,' you should be able to accept the ten unvirtuous acts of others directed towards you—even if it might result in your death. Can you do that?

It's really about not getting delusional about our supposed realizations but that's more clear when read in context - The Treasure Of The Lotus Crystal Cave in Treasures From Juniper Ridge.


True, same point I was attempting to make more or less, one shouldn't get all high and mighty off gaining a little insight and believe they've resolved all traces of ignorance, some traces are very subtle and unless some level definitive realization has been attained those karmic propensities still remain. I was just making the point that the subtle attachments to the body notion are some deeply held (or deeply latent) propensities.

Yeah, no doubt.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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Re: Death contemplation for recognizing the state of rigpa?

Postby asunthatneversets » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:06 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
asunthatneversets wrote:True, same point I was attempting to make more or less, one shouldn't get all high and mighty off gaining a little insight and believe they've resolved all traces of ignorance, some traces are very subtle and unless some level definitive realization has been attained those karmic propensities still remain. I was just making the point that the subtle attachments to the body notion are some deeply held (or deeply latent) propensities.

I always like reading your posts. They are always informative. I wonder sometimes if the idea of achieving realization is somewhat false, as too is the idea that one already has realization? Perhaps we can discuss this idea further in another thread?


Probably both true and false in both cases depending on how you look at it, yeah probably a good topic for another thread since it'd be going off topic a bit. Would be an interesting thread though I'm sure
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