Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogchen?

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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby treehuggingoctopus » Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:08 pm

@SunnSamadh: :thanks:

tobes wrote:Do not be distressed SunnSamadhi. When people make deeply ignorant and prejudicial statements about traditions they know nothing about, it reflects poorly on only one thing: them.

Buddhist converts (of which this forum is largely made up of) are somewhat prone to robustly defend Buddhism (or particular strands within) against just about anything perceived to be 'non-buddhist' (i.e. science, western philosophies, other religions etc). I think it is just part of the process that converts have to go through to work out what is true for them. It is unfortunate that much ignorant posturing about these other things takes place, and I often worry about where it is all leading. Gently offering true insight against this ignorance is all that can be done - as you have done here.


The nail on the head, you've just hit here.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby SunnSamadh » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:11 pm

tobes wrote:
SunnSamadh wrote:I am very distressed at reading the things that you have written about Sikhism. You seem to be in extreme ignorance of Sikh philosophy.

I myself was born into a Sikh family and found a great interest in spiritual pursuits. It is this interest which has driven me to believe that Dzogchen expounds the highest of philosophy, and the very same of which is expounded by the Sikh Gurus. Sikhs do not worship a creator in the sky, and that is an incredible misrepresentation. You don't seem to understand that singing songs and Naam Japna, or simran is a tool meant to help one focus on achieving the highest state of the supreme reality. Guru Nanak was incredibly important as he took highly abstract and sublime truths and fit them under the category of God, so as to better reach the people of that time. It would take me far to long to explain the profound sublime truth behind Guru Nanak's gospel, or how it relates to Dzogchen, but I'll leave something simple and succinct.

aapeh sunn aapeh sukh aasan.
He Himself is in the absolute state of primal meditation; He Himself is in the seat of
peace.

Sunn here is translated as the absolute state of primal meditation.

sunn samaaDh naam ras maatay.
In deepest Samaadhi, they are intoxicated with the essence of the Naam.

Sunn samaadh is the deepest state of meditation, and in it, one is intoxicated with the essence of the Naam. The concept of the Naam is integral to the Gurus Bani, and here you are given perhaps a little understanding of what it is. I can relate it, through my own experience, as being a concept that describes that which cannot be conceptualized, the infinite and boundless. The ultimate experience of Dzogchen, brought into human terms, into conceptual awareness.

sargun nirgun nirankaar sunn samaaDhee aap.
He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He
Himself is in Primal Samaadhi.

I think this one should make it abundantly clear for each person who reads this. HE, the concept upon which we apply the label of God in Sikhism, is Sunn Samaadhee. It is translated as if he is in sunn samaadhee, but this is an improper translation. I will explain why:

Sargun means, possessive of all qualities, or, all attributes.
Nirgun means, possessive of no qualities, or, no attributes.
Nirankaar means, without form. There is deeper significance and meaning to this which is hard to describe, but this is the simple way to put it.
Sunn Samaadhee means, meditation of emptiness, it is expressed as being the most primal state.

The only other word in this line is "aap", which simply mean "you". Thus, all these terms are attributes of "aap", simply denoting that God is not in sunn samadhi, but rather, is sunn samadhi.

Another thing important about the word usage of "aap" and the entire set of scriptures is that, during their reading, one loses ego, sense of self and becomes like the very attributes and things he reads. This is the whole point of simran and Naam japna. Through constant meditation, love for, and repetition of, these scriptures, one adopts the very attributes described. "Aap" ceases to simply mean "you" as in another, but becomes "you" as in reference to the self.

I hope I dispelled some misunderstandings and shed some light on the subject.

PS: Someone made reference to the idea of Raaj Karega Khalsa a few pages back and I'd like to clarify. This translates simply to, the pure shall in the future rule the world. This term does not denote the Khalsa panth, the organization founded by the tenth guru to combat tyranny and defend Sikh principles.


Do not be distressed SunnSamadhi. When people make deeply ignorant and prejudicial statements about traditions they know nothing about, it reflects poorly on only one thing: them.

Buddhist converts (of which this forum is largely made up of) are somewhat prone to robustly defend Buddhism (or particular strands within) against just about anything perceived to be 'non-buddhist' (i.e. science, western philosophies, other religions etc). I think it is just part of the process that converts have to go through to work out what is true for them. It is unfortunate that much ignorant posturing about these other things takes place, and I often worry about where it is all leading. Gently offering true insight against this ignorance is all that can be done - as you have done here.

Thankyou for this.

:anjali:


Oh distress like this is transient and it would be foolish to say that it has not served a purpose :sage: . If I were not distressed, you would never have heard from me :toilet: So perhaps we should be glad of the darkness ignorance which parades in the open, so as to submit itself to the scrutiny of the light of wisdom.

Also, if anyone would like to hear more about the nature of God in Sikhism, I would be glad to oblige.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby Adamantine » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:51 am

SunnSamadh wrote:
Also, if anyone would like to hear more about the nature of God in Sikhism, I would be glad to oblige.


Sure, I'd like to.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby muni » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:27 am

the Sufi mystic poet Jalaluddin Rumi: "O love, O pure deep love, be here, be now! Be all; worlds dissolve into your stainless endless radiance"


Chenrezig or objectless love-compassion, endless radiance.

Springtime is groundless.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby muni » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:31 pm

SunnSamadh wrote:
Also, if anyone would like to hear more about the nature of God in Sikhism, I would be glad to oblige.


Yes Sir. :namaste:
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby Shemmy » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:39 am

@ Sunn Samadhi: :good:

Outstanding posts, keep them coming, I too would like to know more.


Another anecdote, the guy who hosts most of the few Lamas who miraculously appear to teach here in Thailand is Sikh background. Last year while attending teachings at his house I mentioned to him some of the things in this thread. He said, Oh yes, absolutely, that was what he also had heard about Guru Nanak. He also commented that the Nyingma lama who was teaching us also remarked along these lines. There are pictures of Guru Nanak all around on the walls at the place where we were getting teachings, so no doubt the lama, who is quite academic and learned, commented. Our host also added that the lama mentioned there were some kind of shrines in Tibet dedicated to Guru Nanak. Not sure I got that right exactly, it was a year ago, but it seems pretty clear Guru Nanak was quite involved with Tibetan Buddhism at least for a time if not the rest of his life.

I second what Virgo was saying that the Mul mantra is unambiguously describing an experience of God that doesn't seem to be different from the experience of all pervasive non-dual awareness.Don't really get what some are saying that it is reading into things or stretching things to speculate that Guru Nanak was influenced by Dzogchen. Seems pretty unambiguous.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby muni » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:54 am

This tread here seems to teach: integrate!

How can there be a single something OUT then? I was so thinking: is there a bin ‚outside space‘ to put all what is unnecessary in it? I heard that by the blessings of the Master; recognition need not to go back to buy another navigation map but all dharmas are as stars in the very space. All can be “approached” without falling into separation. I don’t know.
There is no star to compare in space by space, no star to examine in space by space.

Ps Only babbling since I saw such brightful stars in space in night when I went to the toilet. :smile:

Here a poem by Guru Nanak for Shemmy and all here:

The guru is the stepping stone,
The guru is the boat,
the guru is the raft of Hari's name.

The guru is the lake, the sea,
The guru is the ship,
the guru is the place to ford the stream.

Would you like to glisten
in the lake that's made of truth?
Go then and bathe in that name.


To bathe into the same nature as the Guru, the Awaken Nature inviting us into same Awaken Nature.

Homage to our Masters ! :buddha1:
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby TrimePema » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:41 am

Dzogchen is beyond religion. All is dzogchen.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby Simon E. » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:06 am

TrimePema wrote:Dzogchen is beyond religion. All is dzogchen.

And you know this...how ?
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby Simon E. » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:07 am

Shemmy wrote:@ Sunn Samadhi: :good:

Outstanding posts, keep them coming, I too would like to know more.


Another anecdote, the guy who hosts most of the few Lamas who miraculously appear to teach here in Thailand is Sikh background. Last year while attending teachings at his house I mentioned to him some of the things in this thread. He said, Oh yes, absolutely, that was what he also had heard about Guru Nanak. He also commented that the Nyingma lama who was teaching us also remarked along these lines. There are pictures of Guru Nanak all around on the walls at the place where we were getting teachings, so no doubt the lama, who is quite academic and learned, commented. Our host also added that the lama mentioned there were some kind of shrines in Tibet dedicated to Guru Nanak. Not sure I got that right exactly, it was a year ago, but it seems pretty clear Guru Nanak was quite involved with Tibetan Buddhism at least for a time if not the rest of his life
I second what Virgo was saying that the Mul mantra is unambiguously describing an experience of God that doesn't seem to be different from the experience of all pervasive non-dual awareness.Don't really get what some are saying that it is reading into things or stretching things to speculate that Guru Nanak was influenced by Dzogchen. Seems pretty unambiguous.


I dont believe a word of this. :smile:
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:07 pm

Mystics from different religions often have more in common with one another than with most of their co-coreligionists.

That doesn't make the religions the same though.
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is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby TrimePema » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:31 pm

Simon E. wrote:
TrimePema wrote:Dzogchen is beyond religion. All is dzogchen.

And you know this...how ?

dzogchen is referring to the primordial state beyond all phenomena which is the essence of phenomena.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby Adamantine » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:05 am

Simon E. wrote:
Shemmy wrote:@ Sunn Samadhi: :good:

Outstanding posts, keep them coming, I too would like to know more.


Another anecdote, the guy who hosts most of the few Lamas who miraculously appear to teach here in Thailand is Sikh background. Last year while attending teachings at his house I mentioned to him some of the things in this thread. He said, Oh yes, absolutely, that was what he also had heard about Guru Nanak. He also commented that the Nyingma lama who was teaching us also remarked along these lines. There are pictures of Guru Nanak all around on the walls at the place where we were getting teachings, so no doubt the lama, who is quite academic and learned, commented. Our host also added that the lama mentioned there were some kind of shrines in Tibet dedicated to Guru Nanak. Not sure I got that right exactly, it was a year ago, but it seems pretty clear Guru Nanak was quite involved with Tibetan Buddhism at least for a time if not the rest of his life
I second what Virgo was saying that the Mul mantra is unambiguously describing an experience of God that doesn't seem to be different from the experience of all pervasive non-dual awareness.Don't really get what some are saying that it is reading into things or stretching things to speculate that Guru Nanak was influenced by Dzogchen. Seems pretty unambiguous.


I dont believe a word of this. :smile:


I can confirm that both the story about the Sikh man hosting the Vajrayana teachings in Thailand is true, as well as the fact that it is common among many Nyingma Lamas to say that Guru Rinpoche and Guru Nanak are the same, -different emanations but the same essence.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:28 am

Maybe the kirpan corresponds to the vajra and the dastar corresponds to the ghanta?
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby Nighthawk » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:42 am

dzogchungpa wrote:Maybe the kirpan corresponds to the vajra and the dastar corresponds to the ghanta?

Nope. Kirpan is a symbol of self defense in the face of oppression as they have a long history of battling with Muslim oppressors.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:47 am

Nighthawk wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Maybe the kirpan corresponds to the vajra and the dastar corresponds to the ghanta?

Nope. Kirpan is a symbol of self defense in the face of oppression as they have a long history of battling with Muslim oppressors.

Well, I wasn't being entirely serious, but you do know that the vajra is the weapon of Indra, right?
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
སརྦ་དྷརྨ་དྷཱ་ཏུ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby Nighthawk » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:16 am

No, I've always understood it as meaning thunderbolt which is the literal sanskrit translation.
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby dzogchungpa » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:18 am

Nighthawk wrote:No, I've always understood it as meaning thunderbolt which is the literal sanskrit translation.

Well, understand anew.

:smile:
Note that, in the higher tantras, there is talk of a self and an I, even though in the lower teachings the absence of self and the absence of I is what is always proclaimed. - Tony Duff
To educate the educated is notoriously difficult. - Jacques Barzun
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby muni » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:28 am

I think so one follows the Buddha’s teachings because we have examples it is the way to be genuinly at peace because it leads to freedom of suffering. No need to mingle with other methods/religions on ones path.

But the Buddha’s teachings are not leading to construct new walls, Buddha-walls, away from "others". For me the Buddha’s teachings are making clear there are no walls at all.

Tilopa: "Go beyond all spiritual methods."

Since Dzogchen is beyond religion, it is not rejecting nor accepting any thing. H H Dalai Lama gave many teachings by showing the lack of these walls by respect in the variety of temples and churches.

Guru Nanak is very respected, he don’t pursue out of his mind to observe “others” but observes his mind itself. I guess in what then can be discovered are no walls but freedom.

Here:
Oh my illusive-self ! let me be with me.
Mr. cloud of nothing! you can command.
Even if I want to love ,you turn its hue to hate.
Originator of vices! you do not satisfy & stop.
Oh my bag of memories! leave me alone.
Mr. shade ghostly ! you are heavy on me.
Even If I want peace , you change it to agitation.
Producer of sensory mirage! you work during sleep as well.
Oh personality label ! you keep everybody different.
Mr. dis-ease ! you rear children of miasma.
Even if I want health, you reshape the malady.
Monitor of society ! you have robbed every body's sleep.
Oh lunatic ! just sit & let sit others.
Mr. prince terror! just remember death.
Destroyer of masses! you are cause underlying.
Even If somebody wants to get away, you try to hang him.
Oh non-being created by real Being ! ,
you have hung many a times, real beings.
Oh non-entity ! let the real entity (Love) prevail for good.


Namaste and have a good day! :namaste: :smile:
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Re: Is the Sikh religion influenced by (even based on) Dzogc

Postby Simon E. » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:37 am

TrimePema wrote:
Simon E. wrote:
TrimePema wrote:Dzogchen is beyond religion. All is dzogchen.

And you know this...how ?

dzogchen is referring to the primordial state beyond all phenomena which is the essence of phenomena.

That's as maybe. I repeat, you KNOW this how ?

:namaste:
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