Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:43 am

heart wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:The teacher retinue relationship is different in Dzogchen. It's not as it is in traditional forms of Buddhism and yet an artifice of this traditional form remains in the DC.
This is no criticism but it is important to notice. Dzogchen is never aspirational. After the DI there is nothing left to do but study the original Dzogchen tantras. And yet there are all manner of 'Dzogchen' related activities to engage in when one gets involved with the DC. Is it necessary to point out that this is no different to any other respected buddhist organization?
But Dzogchen is different and one of the differences is the teacher/retinue dynamic.


I am afraid that you might have misunderstood the dynamic of Dzogchen practice a little. Recognizing the natural state doesn't imply any capacity at all to be able rest in the natural state at length and without a Guru and a Sangha you might never develop any capacity at all. What you are talking about is realization. It is certainly very uncommon, but certainly not impossible, that recognition and realization comes at the same time. If that always was the case there would only be one statement from Garab Dorje, right? If you feel you have realization you should approach your Guru and tell him that, it can be a very sobering experience.

/magnus

There are three sources of inspiration. The teacher, the Dzogchen tantras, the experience. All three are expressions of pure presence. One continues with the consequences of that pure presence. There is no realization to get or check. If there was then presence wouldn't be pure and there would't be a consequence.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Sally Gross » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:51 am

deepbluehum wrote: Sure explaining the points of dhamma-vinaya is helpful education. But, the methods there are very difficult to implement these days.


I certainly do not disagree with you about the virtues of Dzogchen, but feel that it does violence to the open and generous spirit of the practice, as it were, to belittle the teaching of the historical Buddha in the Suttas, be they in Paali or in competent translations. As for the difficulty of implementing the methods there ... well, let's say some of them ... nowadays, I find myself wondering whether we, in these decadent times, no longer breathe so that it becomes impracticable to be mindful of breathing and let that take one where it takes one, or whether we no longer stand, sit, lie down or walk, so that mindfulness of posture and of the body are enormously difficult to implement in these modern times. Have human beings stopped being production-lines for a range of sensations, emotions and thoughts, also natural material for mindfulness? Spending modest amounts of time being mindful is not something foreign to Dzogchen, and old-fashioned Suttic mindfulness can vry easily be integrated into the lives of people aspiring to practice Dzogchen. The practice of mindfulness, being rooted in everyday facets of life -- the natural process and rhythms of the breath, posture and changes in posture, sensations, emotions, thoughts which arise willy nilly and pass away -- is also good for the many people who have not found Dzogchen or are not attracted to it.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:24 am

heart wrote:It is certainly very uncommon, but certainly not impossible, that recognition and realization comes at the same time. If that always was the case there would only be one statement from Garab Dorje, right? If you feel you have realization you should approach your Guru and tell him that, it can be a very sobering experience.

/magnus

In Dzogchen the state of Rigpa "has" already the all qualities. So i'm not sure you are right. First one should recognize this Rigpa with all qualities. As I understand, after it Dzogchen practice starts. Before all is the preliminary Dzogchen practice only, as extraordinary Rushen or special Ati Guru Yoga, or even ordinary preliminary Ngondro of Dzogchen.


Andrew108 wrote:There are three sources of inspiration. The teacher, the Dzogchen tantras, the experience. All three are expressions of pure presence. One continues with the consequences of that pure presence. There is no realization to get or check. If there was then presence wouldn't be pure and there would't be a consequence.
Are you sure you separate instant awareness (Rigpa) from Awareness, as in the last webcast said Namkhai Norbu? This process of separation is called in tibetan Rushen, and is only extraordinary preliminary practice of Dzogchen. If you are sure you really recognize Rigpa with all qualities, after it you continue real practice of Dzogchen as you wrote, not before.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:01 pm

Jnana wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Try to be patient then and explain yourself instead of being mean.

The point is that there are human beings who are not receptive to dzogchen. Among this group there are people who have either been conditioned by secular humanism or have lost faith in religion for any number of reasons. In these cases mainstream Nikāya Buddhism has an advantage for turning the mind towards the dharma in that these teachings are more accessible via step-by-step investigation and analysis. Lamrim and lojong have similar advantages. There are authoritative teachers teaching within all of these traditions, and students who can attest to the utility and benefits of these practices. This isn't controversial -- there are teachers within dzogchen lineages who acknowledge these points as well.



Tashi delek,

Good reply. :applause:

Can fully agree that not every human being is receptive to dzogchen or ready for it.
Even after the DI there could be an eventual partly recognition, but seldom realisation.

The best prove for realisation is the Bardo State. Here one can prove the realisation of the visions, in case the subtle ignorance is overcome. Great Dzogchen Masters like Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche says that he has that subtle ignorance too. He says that this subtle ignorance has no beginning and is the reason for the migration into the 6 Realms.

Also very good that you mentioned Sutra as a step by step method to get from the zero start of total ignorance to more insight. It is not for nothing that the Buddhas did teach all those methods, otherwise they would have teached only Dzogchen as the only method.

Sure there are teachers within Dzogchen Lineages who acknowledge these points and i am following one of these Lineages. :anjali:

But the Buddhas did teached Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen. Sutra and Tantra because not everybody can have an understanding about Dzogchen. But even in Sutra there is no knowledge about Tantra.

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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:03 pm

Jnana wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:Try to be patient then and explain yourself instead of being mean.

The point is that there are human beings who are not receptive to dzogchen. Among this group there are people who have either been conditioned by secular humanism or have lost faith in religion for any number of reasons. In these cases mainstream Nikāya Buddhism has an advantage for turning the mind towards the dharma in that these teachings are more accessible via step-by-step investigation and analysis. Lamrim and lojong have similar advantages. There are authoritative teachers teaching within all of these traditions, and students who can attest to the utility and benefits of these practices. This isn't controversial -- there are teachers within dzogchen lineages who acknowledge these points as well.




Tashi delek,

Good reply.

Can fully agree that not every human being is receptive to dzogchen or ready for it.
Even after the DI there could be an eventual partly recognition, but seldom realisation.

The best prove for realisation is the Bardo State. Here one can prove the realisation of the visions, in case the subtle ignorance is overcome. Great Dzogchen Masters like Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche says that he has that subtle ignorance too. He says that this subtle ignorance has no beginning and is the reason for the migration into the 6 Realms.

Also very good that you mentioned Sutra as a step by step method to get from the zero start of total ignorance to more insight. It is not for nothing that the Buddhas did teach all those methods, otherwise they would have teached only Dzogchen as the only method.

Sure there are teachers within Dzogchen Lineages who acknowledge these points and i am following one of these Lineages.

But the Buddhas did teached Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen. Sutra and Tantra because not everybody can have an understanding about Dzogchen. But even in Sutra there is no knowledge about Tantra.

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:05 pm

Mariusz
You don't have to separate. You just have the knowledge. You deal with the consequence of that. You are the consequence of that. There is no realization that arises as a result.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:21 pm

Andrew108 wrote:Mariusz
You don't have to separate. You just have the knowledge. You deal with the consequence of that. You are the consequence of that. There is no realization that arises as a result.
Hmmm, you know me better than me :smile: Are you writing on partial recognition, so called glympse?

BTW, the term separation (Rushen) is only pedagogical. You don't need take it there and take that out there.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Simon E. » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:37 pm

MalaBeads wrote:Simon wrote:

"CNNR knows that many people require a narrative."

I think that most people require a narrative and I would be willing to say that at some time or other everyonerequires a narrative, even if that narrative is allowed to dissolve back into the emptiness from which it arose in the first place.

Narrative is one of those limitations that this thread is discussing. And the need for narrative is a hugely unexamined topic that might be useful to look at. It is one of the "conditions" of human beings.

The point being that narrative although useful and indeed sometimes vital is not always objective historical fact.
Its a holding operation that feeds an apparent hard- wired need in many people.
ChNNN being a wise and compassionate teacher does not disabuse people of their need for a magical and mythological narrative.
He leaves that to ripen and fall in its own time.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:42 pm

Simon E. wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:Simon wrote:

"CNNR knows that many people require a narrative."

I think that most people require a narrative and I would be willing to say that at some time or other everyonerequires a narrative, even if that narrative is allowed to dissolve back into the emptiness from which it arose in the first place.

Narrative is one of those limitations that this thread is discussing. And the need for narrative is a hugely unexamined topic that might be useful to look at. It is one of the "conditions" of human beings.

The point being that narrative although useful and indeed sometimes vital is not always objective historical fact.
Its a holding operation that feeds an apparent hard- wired need in many people.
ChNNN being a wise and compassionate teacher does not disabuse people of their need for a magical and mythological narrative.
He leaves that to ripen and fall in its own time.



Tashi delek,

Could you give an example of a narrative ?

Thanks :anjali:

Mutsog Marro
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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Jnana » Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:50 pm

Sally Gross wrote:There is one statement in this discussion in relation to which I agree with deepbluehum, but suspect that you will also agree with it. Samatha and vipassana should not be viewed in isolation from one another, at least from the perspective of the Buddha's teaching in the Suttas, but instead should be seen as two aspects of a unified system of practice, samatha-vipassana, in that they go hand-in-hand and cannot be divorced completely from one another in the path taught in the Suttas. The Buddha's description of mindfulness of breathing in the Anapanasati Sutta, for example, sketches out an integrated development of the practice which runs through jhaana, into insight and through to the ending of the fetters.

Yes, of course. (Already acknowledged here.)

Sally Gross wrote:All of this is invaluable for people seeking to practice Dzogchen. Something which my teacher, ChNNR, has been recommending lately is that people dedicate time to what Theravadins would call the practice of sati, simple straight-forward mindfulness in daily life -- being in the present and going about one's everyday activities with mindfulness -- integrating this into Dzogchen practice.

The path of self-liberation (rang grol lam) is largely a mindfulness based approach (although the mode of mindfulness is different than in causal vehicle paths). In chagchen and dzogchen teachings we find terms such as rang gsal gyi dran pa, gnyug ma'i dran pa, rang rig gi dran pa, and so on. Tsele Natsok Rangdröl, The Circle of the Sun:

    The authentic great Kagyu masters took self-cognizant mindfulness as their practice, which is identical to the primordially pure self-awareness of the dzogchen system.

Mingyur Rinpoche explains the different modes of mindfulness as follows:

    The single term “mindfulness,” or dran pa, in Tibetan, is something that, depending on the context, can have different connotations.... There is a kind of mindfulness that employs a theme or structure, someone being mindful of something, in a dualistic sense. And that is one valid form of mindfulness. There is also a mindfulness that doesn’t require that kind of structure.... And then in the dzogchen sense, to give a third level of interpretation to this term mindfulness, there is what is termed gnyug ma'i dran pa, which might literally be something like “genuine mindfulness” ... or rang rig dran pa, which is “self-aware mindfulness,” which is completely beyond that framework of subject and object.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby MalaBeads » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:04 pm

Simon E. wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:Simon wrote:

"CNNR knows that many people require a narrative."

I think that most people require a narrative and I would be willing to say that at some time or other everyonerequires a narrative, even if that narrative is allowed to dissolve back into the emptiness from which it arose in the first place.

Narrative is one of those limitations that this thread is discussing. And the need for narrative is a hugely unexamined topic that might be useful to look at. It is one of the "conditions" of human beings.

The point being that narrative although useful and indeed sometimes vital is not always objective historical fact.
Its a holding operation that feeds an apparent hard- wired need in many people.
ChNNN being a wise and compassionate teacher does not disabuse people of their need for a magical and mythological narrative.
He leaves that to ripen and fall in its own time.


Yes, thanks. ChNN has an amazing capacity for equanimity. I am constantly amazed by him and understand over and over again why he is my teacher.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:05 pm

Jnana wrote:
The authentic great Kagyu masters took self-cognizant mindfulness as their practice, which is identical to the primordially pure self-awareness of the dzogchen system.



Tashi delek,

Have some questions about the relationship between self-cognizant mindfulness and the primordially pure self-awareness used in Dzogchen.

About your statement here regarding self-cognizant mindfulness want to know from you in which sense is here mindfullness understood. Mindfullness do i know in Sutra as the Jina declared: Mindfulness in walking, sitting , lying down, etc. I mean here is object as well subject.

Self-cognizant is that Wisdom as self-emanating, meant by you?

Thanks :namaste:

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby heart » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:06 pm

Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:It is certainly very uncommon, but certainly not impossible, that recognition and realization comes at the same time. If that always was the case there would only be one statement from Garab Dorje, right? If you feel you have realization you should approach your Guru and tell him that, it can be a very sobering experience.

/magnus

In Dzogchen the state of Rigpa "has" already the all qualities. So i'm not sure you are right. First one should recognize this Rigpa with all qualities. As I understand, after it Dzogchen practice starts. Before all is the preliminary Dzogchen practice only, as extraordinary Rushen or special Ati Guru Yoga, or even ordinary preliminary Ngondro of Dzogchen.


Certainly rigpa have all the qualities from the beginning, it just don't last very long time. Dzogchen practice start the moment you get direct introduction and recognize the natural state, no matter what you are practicing at that time. You just integrate that recognition in whatever you do on the pillow or off the pillow. Realization, in Dzogchen, is when the mind (sem) lost it's grip on you.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:08 pm

heart wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
heart wrote:It is certainly very uncommon, but certainly not impossible, that recognition and realization comes at the same time. If that always was the case there would only be one statement from Garab Dorje, right? If you feel you have realization you should approach your Guru and tell him that, it can be a very sobering experience.

/magnus

In Dzogchen the state of Rigpa "has" already the all qualities. So i'm not sure you are right. First one should recognize this Rigpa with all qualities. As I understand, after it Dzogchen practice starts. Before all is the preliminary Dzogchen practice only, as extraordinary Rushen or special Ati Guru Yoga, or even ordinary preliminary Ngondro of Dzogchen.


Certainly rigpa have all the qualities from the beginning, it just don't last very long time. Dzogchen practice start the moment you get direct introduction and recognize the natural state, no matter what you are practicing at that time. You just integrate that recognition in whatever you do on the pillow or off the pillow. Realization, in Dzogchen, is when the mind (sem) lost it's grip on you.

/magnus



Tashi delek,

Then you would agree that the ego-less state is equaled with Rigpa ?

:anjali:

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IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby MalaBeads » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:10 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Simon E. wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:Simon wrote:

"CNNR knows that many people require a narrative."

I think that most people require a narrative and I would be willing to say that at some time or other everyonerequires a narrative, even if that narrative is allowed to dissolve back into the emptiness from which it arose in the first place.

Narrative is one of those limitations that this thread is discussing. And the need for narrative is a hugely unexamined topic that might be useful to look at. It is one of the "conditions" of human beings.

The point being that narrative although useful and indeed sometimes vital is not always objective historical fact.
Its a holding operation that feeds an apparent hard- wired need in many people.
ChNNN being a wise and compassionate teacher does not disabuse people of their need for a magical and mythological narrative.
He leaves that to ripen and fall in its own time.



Tashi delek,

Could you give an example of a narrative ?

Thanks :anjali:

Mutsog Marro
KY


Narrative is any story you tell yourself, about anything. Narrative is one of minds' organizing principles. It is what mind does to the information it is constantly gathering from the environment. Dzogchen practice goes beyond mind however. That is why narrative is a limitation.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Pero » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:12 pm

MalaBeads wrote:Narrative is any story you tell yourself, about anything. Narrative is one of minds' organizing principles. It is what mind does to the information it is constantly gathering from the environment. Dzogchen practice goes beyond mind however. That is why narrative is a limitation.

I still have no clue what you guys are talking about. Can you give a specific example please?
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Sally Gross » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:12 pm

Jnana wrote:The path of self-liberation (rang grol lam) is largely a mindfulness based approach (although the mode of mindfulness is different than in causal vehicle paths). In chagchen and dzogchen teachings we find terms such as rang gsal gyi dran pa, gnyug ma'i dran pa, rang rig gi dran pa, and so on. Tsele Natsok Rangdröl, The Circle of the Sun:

    The authentic great Kagyu masters took self-cognizant mindfulness as their practice, which is identical to the primordially pure self-awareness of the dzogchen system.

Mingyur Rinpoche explains the different modes of mindfulness as follows:

    The single term “mindfulness,” or dran pa, in Tibetan, is something that, depending on the context, can have different connotations.... There is a kind of mindfulness that employs a theme or structure, someone being mindful of something, in a dualistic sense. And that is one valid form of mindfulness. There is also a mindfulness that doesn’t require that kind of structure.... And then in the dzogchen sense, to give a third level of interpretation to this term mindfulness, there is what is termed gnyug ma'i dran pa, which might literally be something like “genuine mindfulness” ... or rang rig dran pa, which is “self-aware mindfulness,” which is completely beyond that framework of subject and object.


:anjali:
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby heart » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:13 pm

Andrew108 wrote:There are three sources of inspiration. The teacher, the Dzogchen tantras, the experience. All three are expressions of pure presence. One continues with the consequences of that pure presence. There is no realization to get or check. If there was then presence wouldn't be pure and there would't be a consequence.


Certainly true if you can stay for a long time in the natural state without engaging in thoughts and emotions.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:14 pm

quote="MalaBeads"]
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Simon E. wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:Simon wrote:

"CNNR knows that many people require a narrative."

I think that most people require a narrative and I would be willing to say that at some time or other everyonerequires a narrative, even if that narrative is allowed to dissolve back into the emptiness from which it arose in the first place.

Narrative is one of those limitations that this thread is discussing. And the need for narrative is a hugely unexamined topic that might be useful to look at. It is one of the "conditions" of human beings.

The point being that narrative although useful and indeed sometimes vital is not always objective historical fact.
Its a holding operation that feeds an apparent hard- wired need in many people.
ChNNN being a wise and compassionate teacher does not disabuse people of their need for a magical and mythological narrative.
He leaves that to ripen and fall in its own time.



Tashi delek,

Could you give an example of a narrative ?

Thanks :anjali:

Mutsog Marro
KY


Narrative is any story you tell yourself, about anything. Narrative is one of minds' organizing principles. It is what mind does to the information it is constantly gathering from the environment. Dzogchen practice goes beyond mind however. That is why narrative is a limitation.[/quote]


Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Now i do understand narative.

I know it as, to have thoughts in / about approaching Dzogchen that is no Dzogchen (experience)

Hope we can share this example. :anjali:

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Jnana » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:18 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:Self-cognizant is that Wisdom as self-emanating, meant by you?

Yes, this. ^^

kalden yungdrung wrote:About your statement here regarding self-cognizant mindfulness want to know from you in which sense is here mindfullness understood. Mindfullness do i know in Sutra as the Jina declared: Mindfulness in walking, sitting , lying down, etc. I mean here is object as well subject.

Not this. ^^

Please refer to the explanation given by Mingyur Rinpoche, quoted here, which explains these distinctions.
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