Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Jnana » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:25 am

deepbluehum wrote:
Jnana wrote:The Śrāvakamārga is a pragmatic therapeutic path oriented towards sequentially eliminating the ten fetters. The meditation practices taught by the Theras -- both ancient and modern -- are working components of viable, living traditions.


I don't think so.

That's fine by me.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Jnana » Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:45 am

deepbluehum wrote:Vipassana and shamatha are not separate.

Well, the Śrāvakayāna and the Mahāyāna Pāramitāyāna are both developmental paths. But even within the Theravāda Abhidharma, both śamatha & vipaśyanā are concomitant with any skillful mind or supramundane mind.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Tilopa » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:46 am

deepbluehum wrote: What is meaningful and useful to know is that when we are in our real nature, then it accomplishes the task Buddha taught. It stops the emotional urges. Like the ones that make us keep proving things to one another.

The implication here is that just now you're not in your real nature and so my question must inevitably be "why not"?
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Tilopa » Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:48 am

BTW it's not meant to be a frivolous question. I'm genuinely interested.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby deepbluehum » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:16 am

"Because we are in dualism vision, so we do our best." ChNN
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Tilopa » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:55 am

deepbluehum wrote:"Because we are in dualism vision, so we do our best." ChNN

Which implies success in the practice requires effort on the part of the student - logical really and quite obvious.

Which is the same for all paths taught by the Buddha.

So while dzogchen teaching may be free from limitation realization nevertheless depends on the capacity or willingness of the student to practice.

Which is also the same for the different paths taught by the Buddha, is it not?
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:01 am

Tilopa wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:"Because we are in dualism vision, so we do our best." ChNN

Which implies success in the practice requires effort on the part of the student - logical really and quite obvious.

Which is the same for all paths taught by the Buddha.

So while dzogchen teaching may be free from limitation realization nevertheless depends on the capacity or willingness of the student to practice.

Which is also the same for the different paths taught by the Buddha, is it not?
Even if someone "get it" because the DI without cultivation of any practice prior, one has to have the connection from previous lives in order to meet the master. At least the master ate the dinner made of someone previous life body, as I remember from the last webcast with Namkhai Norbu :spy: In Khandro Nyinthig it is said a mosquito was killed in previous lifetime. So Guru Rinpoche has the special connection with it, so he can transmit all the Dzogchen Nyinthig to it, because it was reborn as Pemasel, the daughter of tibetan king Tridson Tedsen. Please read "The Lama Jewel Ocean" (wylie: Blama Norbu rGyamtsho) terma of Pema Lingpa :cheers:
Last edited by Mariusz on Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:12 am

Tilopa wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:"Because we are in dualism vision, so we do our best." ChNN

Which implies success in the practice requires effort on the part of the student - logical really and quite obvious.

Which is the same for all paths taught by the Buddha.

So while dzogchen teaching may be free from limitation realization nevertheless depends on the capacity or willingness of the student to practice.

Which is also the same for the different paths taught by the Buddha, is it not?

This is a good point and you are correct. A lot (99%) of what goes on in the DC isn't really Dzogchen. lt is aspirational Dzogchen , which isn't Dzogchen at all.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Simon E. » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:20 am

Tilopa wrote:
deepbluehum wrote: What is meaningful and useful to know is that when we are in our real nature, then it accomplishes the task Buddha taught. It stops the emotional urges. Like the ones that make us keep proving things to one another.

The implication here is that just now you're not in your real nature and so my question must inevitably be "why not"?

The question does not compute...You are reducing that which cannot be verbalised, only experienced, to a verbal formula. You are then implying that the lack of verbalisation proves inauthenticity.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:21 am

Andrew108 wrote:
Tilopa wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:"Because we are in dualism vision, so we do our best." ChNN

Which implies success in the practice requires effort on the part of the student - logical really and quite obvious.

Which is the same for all paths taught by the Buddha.

So while dzogchen teaching may be free from limitation realization nevertheless depends on the capacity or willingness of the student to practice.

Which is also the same for the different paths taught by the Buddha, is it not?

This is a good point and you are correct. A lot (99%) of what goes on in the DC isn't really Dzogchen. lt is aspirational Dzogchen , which isn't Dzogchen at all.
In it I don't think DC is different from other communities of Dzogchen practitioners. It is simply just more popular because of webcasts.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Simon E. » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:22 am

Mariusz wrote:
Tilopa wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:"Because we are in dualism vision, so we do our best." ChNN

Which implies success in the practice requires effort on the part of the student - logical really and quite obvious.

Which is the same for all paths taught by the Buddha.

So while dzogchen teaching may be free from limitation realization nevertheless depends on the capacity or willingness of the student to practice.

Which is also the same for the different paths taught by the Buddha, is it not?
Even if someone "get it" because the DI without cultivation of any practice prior, one has to have the connection from previous lives in order to meet the master. At least the master ate the dinner made of someone previous life body, as I remember from the last webcast with Namkhai Norbu :spy: In Khandro Nyinthig it is said a mosquito was killed in previous lifetime. So Guru Rinpoche has the special connection with it, so he can transmit all the Dzogchen Nyinthig to it, because it was reborn as Pemasel, the daughter of tibetan king Tridson Tedsen. Please read "The Lama Jewel Ocean" (wylie: Blama Norbu rGyamtsho) terma of Pema Lingpa :cheers:

ChNNN knows that many people require a narrative.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby alpha » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:27 am

Andrew108 wrote:This is a good point and you are correct. A lot (99%) of what goes on in the DC isn't really Dzogchen. lt is aspirational Dzogchen , which isn't Dzogchen at all.


this is how it starts whit the intention and aspiration to put into practice what you've received.
"Aspirational dzogchen" will lead you into your real condition by the blessing of the transmission if one insists and is diligent in his aspiration and practice.

A genuine heart , desire for discovery and unhindered faith in your guru are indispensable.
AOM
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Simon E. » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:40 am

Andrew108 wrote:
Tilopa wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:"Because we are in dualism vision, so we do our best." ChNN

Which implies success in the practice requires effort on the part of the student - logical really and quite obvious.

Which is the same for all paths taught by the Buddha.

So while dzogchen teaching may be free from limitation realization nevertheless depends on the capacity or willingness of the student to practice.

Which is also the same for the different paths taught by the Buddha, is it not?

This is a good point and you are correct. A lot (99%) of what goes on in the DC isn't really Dzogchen. lt is aspirational Dzogchen , which isn't Dzogchen at all.

Perhaps sir you would care to share how you arrived at the values of your percentage ?
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:40 am

Mariusz wrote:
Tilopa wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:"Because we are in dualism vision, so we do our best." ChNN

Which implies success in the practice requires effort on the part of the student - logical really and quite obvious.

Which is the same for all paths taught by the Buddha.

So while dzogchen teaching may be free from limitation realization nevertheless depends on the capacity or willingness of the student to practice.

Which is also the same for the different paths taught by the Buddha, is it not?
Even if someone "get it" because the DI without cultivation of any practice prior, one has to have the connection from previous lives in order to meet the master. At least the master ate the dinner made of someone previous life body, as I remember from the last webcast with Namkhai Norbu :spy: In Khandro Nyinthig it is said a mosquito was killed in previous lifetime. So Guru Rinpoche has the special connection with it, so he can transmit all the Dzogchen Nyinthig to it, because it was reborn as Pemasel, the daughter of tibetan king Tridson Tedsen. Please read "The Lama Jewel Ocean" (wylie: Blama Norbu rGyamtsho) terma of Pema Lingpa :cheers:
I forget to mention Pemasal was 8 years old, so she had not the one's own practice prior. So Dzogchen master-student is amasing in making use of the limitations. That it is special. However these days we have not such person as Guru Rinpoche, so it is very wise to do also the compatible in order to realize dzogchen, I mean to do all these buddhist tools. So it is done in the Dzogchen Community too.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Andrew108 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:43 am

The teacher retinue relationship is different in Dzogchen. It's not as it is in traditional forms of Buddhism and yet an artifice of this traditional form remains in the DC.
This is no criticism but it is important to notice. Dzogchen is never aspirational. After the DI there is nothing left to do but study the original Dzogchen tantras. And yet there are all manner of 'Dzogchen' related activities to engage in when one gets involved with the DC. Is it necessary to point out that this is no different to any other respected buddhist organization?
But Dzogchen is different and one of the differences is the teacher/retinue dynamic.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Mariusz » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:52 am

Andrew108 wrote:The teacher retinue relationship is different in Dzogchen. It's not as it is in traditional forms of Buddhism and yet an artifice of this traditional form remains in the DC.
This is no criticism but it is important to notice. Dzogchen is never aspirational. After the DI there is nothing left to do but study the original Dzogchen tantras. And yet there are all manner of 'Dzogchen' related activities to engage in when one gets involved with the DC. Is it necessary to point out that this is no different to any other respected buddhist organization?
But Dzogchen is different and one of the differences is the teacher/retinue dynamic.
You meant after the recognition of Rigpa because of DI from the master, there is nothing left to do but study the original Dzogchen tantras?
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby alpha » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:10 am

Andrew108 wrote:The teacher retinue relationship is different in Dzogchen. It's not as it is in traditional forms of Buddhism and yet an artifice of this traditional form remains in the DC.
This is no criticism but it is important to notice. Dzogchen is never aspirational. After the DI there is nothing left to do but study the original Dzogchen tantras. And yet there are all manner of 'Dzogchen' related activities to engage in when one gets involved with the DC. Is it necessary to point out that this is no different to any other respected buddhist organization?
But Dzogchen is different and one of the differences is the teacher/retinue dynamic.


what is left to do after di is practice.
study of the dzogchen tantras is not as important as practice.
later on you can study the dzogchen tantras and everyhting will make more sense.

Being involved in those activities is not a prerequisite of becoming a member in DC.
However is important to strike a balance between personal practice and community involvement as per Rinpoche's advice.
AOM
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby heart » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:17 am

Andrew108 wrote:The teacher retinue relationship is different in Dzogchen. It's not as it is in traditional forms of Buddhism and yet an artifice of this traditional form remains in the DC.
This is no criticism but it is important to notice. Dzogchen is never aspirational. After the DI there is nothing left to do but study the original Dzogchen tantras. And yet there are all manner of 'Dzogchen' related activities to engage in when one gets involved with the DC. Is it necessary to point out that this is no different to any other respected buddhist organization?
But Dzogchen is different and one of the differences is the teacher/retinue dynamic.


I am afraid that you might have misunderstood the dynamic of Dzogchen practice a little. Recognizing the natural state doesn't imply any capacity at all to be able rest in the natural state at length and without a Guru and a Sangha you might never develop any capacity at all. What you are talking about is realization. It is certainly very uncommon, but certainly not impossible, that recognition and realization comes at the same time. If that always was the case there would only be one statement from Garab Dorje, right? If you feel you have realization you should approach your Guru and tell him that, it can be a very sobering experience.

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby Sally Gross » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:30 am

Jnana wrote:Vipaśyanā generally requires some degree of śamatha. The latter is most effectively developed through sitting with the back properly aligned. Thus, sitting meditation is conducive for the arising of vipaśyanā, but it isn't essential. Vipaśyanā can arise while engaging in any of the four postures.


Regarding samatha, it depends on the specific method. In relation to mindfulness of breathing, the Buddha explicitly recommends sitting -- in the Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10), for example, the meditator is described as sitting down, legs crossed, keeping the body erect. It can be practised without an erect back -- even lying down -- if circumstances are such that the meditator cannot sit, or cannot sit with an erect back, though it is more difficult in the beginning, requiring more intense initial concentration. There are many samatha practices which are not dependent on posture and which can be taken through to jhaana in postures other than sitting, though it is presumably difficult, dangerous and therefore totally impracticable to achieve jhaana while walking. A posture in which one can be still is therefore probably a prerequisite for samatha, taken through the jhaana. When not taken through to jhaana, it is a different story. Vipassana, as distinct from the jhaanic content of samatha, will not be hindered by movement; but it will be helped greatly by the focus which immediately prior practice of the jhaanas brings.

There is one statement in this discussion in relation to which I agree with deepbluehum, but suspect that you will also agree with it. Samatha and vipassana should not be viewed in isolation from one another, at least from the perspective of the Buddha's teaching in the Suttas, but instead should be seen as two aspects of a unified system of practice, samatha-vipassana, in that they go hand-in-hand and cannot be divorced completely from one another in the path taught in the Suttas. The Buddha's description of mindfulness of breathing in the Anapanasati Sutta, for example, sketches out an integrated development of the practice which runs through jhaana, into insight and through to the ending of the fetters.

All of this is invaluable for people seeking to practice Dzogchen. Something which my teacher, ChNNR, has been recommending lately is that people dedicate time to what Theravadins would call the practice of sati, simple straight-forward mindfulness in daily life -- being in the present and going about one's everyday activities with mindfulness -- integrating this into Dzogchen practice.
Dukkham eva hi, na koci dukkhito,
kaarako na, kiriyaa va vijjati,
atthi nibbuti, na nibbuto pumaa,
maggam atthi, gamako na vijjati


Suffering there certainly is, but no sufferer,
no doer, though certainly the deed is found.
peace is achieved, but no-one's appeased,
the way is walked, but no walker's to be found.

- Visuddhimagga XVI, 90
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Re: Dzogchen Teaching is Free From Limitations

Postby MalaBeads » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:40 am

Simon wrote:

"CNNR knows that many people require a narrative."

I think that most people require a narrative and I would be willing to say that at some time or other everyonerequires a narrative, even if that narrative is allowed to dissolve back into the emptiness from which it arose in the first place.

Narrative is one of those limitations that this thread is discussing. And the need for narrative is a hugely unexamined topic that might be useful to look at. It is one of the "conditions" of human beings.
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